Ontario budget thumbs nose at Drummond report

[Boges]

So money that goes to hiring public servants (for whatever reason) Good

Gambling Revenue that goes to investing in a prosperous industry: Bad

By you're logic the $1.1 billion that the CBC gets should be yanked too right?

A Strong Horse Racing Industry Makes a Strong Ontario:

- 31,441 full time job equivalents exist in Ontario directly because of the Horse Racing Industry.

- It is estimated a total of 60,000 Ontarians are employedeither full time, part-time or seasonally as a result of the Horse Racing Industry in Ontario.

- A total $1.5 billion in wages and salaries in Ontario are sustained annually by total expenditures of the Ontario horse racing and breeding industry. This total is 50% larger than the $1 billion in 2000.

- The effective average direct wage is $47,145 (racetrack operations) and $55,035 at the racing phase (backstretches and farms). These wages are not much different from some of the highest industrial wages in Ontario and compares closely to the Tourism industry at $55,000.

- Direct and indirect investment stimulates local economies with demand for products and services in rural Ontario provided by veterinarians, blacksmiths, hay and grain supplies, transportation workers and harness and saddle makers.

http://value4money.ca/horse-racing-economics/

The evidence is there that the program creates more wealth than it takes. So anyone that opposes the program is just ideologically opposed to the industry itself.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Boges

[Smallc]

That's completely shortsighted.

Government money going into employing pencil pushers at some Ontario organization: good. Gambling revenue going to hardworking private sector workers: bad.

Nice attempt at spin. It might mean something, were it not for the fact that most things in Ontario are being cut.

That 20% allowed the industry to become very profitable. The government sees that money back to the tune of $1.1 billion by supporting a prosperous industry.

And if the industry is very profitable now, they should continue to be profitable.

I don't know if you can do math or not but $1.1 billion > $345 million.

I'm sure the calculations have been done. Enough track will survive to make this a net positive of the government. You should never base your business on a government subsidy, no matter what you want to call that subsidy.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Smallc

[Boges]

I'm sure the calculations have been done. Enough track will survive to make this a net positive of the government.

Yes because you think a government that spent double the rate of inflation since they got elected is that smart.

You should never base your business on a government subsidy, no matter what you want to call that subsidy.

What like every TV program, movie, or music album produced in Canada?

It'll say this, your opinion is in the vast minority. Polls have shown that OLG plan is rather unpopular.

What probably will happen is that individual deals will have to be cut with each of the track owners and the OLG. If the OLG refuses to make a fair deal with each track owner the OLG will probably lose the use of the track.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Boges

[Smallc]

Yes because you think a government that spent double the rate of inflation since they got elected is that smart. :roll eyes:

And yet, Ontario still spends less than every other province per capita.

What like every TV program, movie, or music album produced in Canada?

All of them? No. Art is also not the same as gambling, no matter how much you try to justify your position.

[Boges]

And yet, Ontario still spends less than every other province per capita.

Then why area they in a $16 billion deficit? And yet they're willing to spend more to ensure 4-year-old's get free daycare all day.

All of them? No. Art is also not the same as gambling, no matter how much you try to justify your position.

So reality programming on Slice, Anything on TVO and Being Erica is more important than the second largest agricultural sector in the province?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Boges

[Smallc]

Then why area they in a $16 billion deficit? And yet they're willing to spend more to ensure 4-year-old's get free daycare all day.

Because there was a massive recession in Ontario's largest market. I've already told you that Education is more important.

So reality programming on Slice, Anything on TVO and Being Erica is more important than the second largest agricultural sector in the province?

I don't support any of those particular things. Music is produced in Canada that requires very little in the way of subsidy.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Smallc

[Boges]

Because there was a massive recession in Ontario's largest market. I've already told you that Education is more important.

All-Day Kindergarten isn't education, it's daycare.

It's funny the PC's eliminate Grade 13 to save money and McDalton creates an new grade at the beginning to remove that savings.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Boges

[Smallc]

All-Day Kindergarten isn't education, it's daycare.

I realize you have an opinion on that. It isn't actually based on anything though.

It's funny the PC's eliminate Grade 13 to save money and McDalton creates an new grade at the beginning to remove that savings.

Grade 13 was an Ontario anomaly. Kindergarten isn't.

[Boges]

Kindergarten for 4-year-olds all day?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Boges

[Boges]

http://www.ondpcaucus.com/yoursay/

The NDP wants people to tell them what they think of this budget.

I'm curious to see who actually likes this budget.

[Guest Peeves]

Kindergarten for 4-year-olds all day?

Obviously the needs of a 4 year old are around eating, pooping and Liberal coloring books.

The question is, does the liberal 4 year old class room have enough breast milk? I know they have enough poop, and coloring books are apparently how they developed their green energy policies so they are ok on that front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-HYZZTdAQ&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CCQQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DDh-HYZZTdAQ%26ei%3DZFpzT7KyKOKa2gXXttFc%26usg%3DAFQjCNELFFOeYaNt3pCLzhdaaqNtJuhyyA%26sig2%3Dkln5es_PG3UXuZv2WVyiLA&has_verified=1

[MiddleClassCentrist]

And yet, Ontario still spends less than every other province per capita.

It should also be noted that Ontario employs the fewest public sector workers per capita as well.

source: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/27/ontario-budget-andrew-coyne/

Specifically http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/na0328_ontariobudget.gif

Ontario employs 7.4 public sector employees per 1000 people.

Alberta employs 8.2 public sector employees per 1000 people.

Edited March 28, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Jack Weber]

The racing industry should still be able to exist without subsidies, if it's so profitable.

That's right!

At least it should'nt be subsidized by slot machines at the track...

I'm sure,assuming every track in Ontario goes under,Ernie Samuels and Frank Stronach will do just fine...

The fact of the matter is that it's up to the horse racing industry to make itself relevent again...

[Jack Weber]

So reality programming on Slice, Anything on TVO and Being Erica is more important than the second largest agricultural sector in the province?

Thank you,Randy Hillier!

[capricorn]

Kindergarten for 4-year-olds all day?

Actually, any 3 year-old who turns 4 before December 31 will be eligible for day care all day kindergarten.

[capricorn]

Obviously the needs of a 4 year old are around eating, pooping and Liberal coloring books.

Napping with favorite blankie or plush toy also seems something they enjoy.

[margrace]

I don't like this budget, it is the stupidist paper ever presented but that said the one coming down tomorrow is purely frightening and we don't need an election at this time. We have to keep some power over the PCs or we will all live to regret it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I don't like this budget, it is the stupidist paper ever presented but that said the one coming down tomorrow is purely frightening and we don't need an election at this time. We have to keep some power over the PCs or we will all live to regret it.

I don't think anyone really likes a budget that makes any cuts. It either cuts the wrong stuff, cuts too much, cuts too little, etc.

The Liberal plan makes some dumb "cuts"...

- Holding off of infrastructure improvements doesn't prevent the cost of them... just pushes them back.

- Wage freezes, as Drummond aptly pointed out, isn't effective because people want to maintain their standard of living for performing the same job. The wages are eventually caught up, arbitrators eventually side with the employees. Especially since the government has money, that it has chosen to allocate elsewhere (in the form of tax cuts/additional program spending). Though, McGuinty, I believe is pushing wage reform.

Here is a real cut. How about dropping the $3.5 billion in business subsidies? If we can't afford them, why are we providing them? Corporate welfare and handouts should be the least of our concerns. Corporations don't care if they received welfare last year, if they'll make money moving their business today, they will do it.

Here is another one. If we can't afford subsidizing electricity, let's not. People can lower their consumption, to some degree, by being more pro-active in turning off appliances when not in use. Turning off power bars to prevent ghost drain when the appliances are not in use.

Another one. If we can't afford All-day kindergarten, maybe now is not the time for it. We have gotten along without it for quite some time. I do understand the argument for it, it increases the productivity level of parents (mostly mothers) by having a stable learning environment for their child to be in while they go back to work.

Edited March 29, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Boges]

That's right!

At least it should'nt be subsidized by slot machines at the track...

I'm sure,assuming every track in Ontario goes under,Ernie Samuels and Frank Stronach will do just fine...

The fact of the matter is that it's up to the horse racing industry to make itself relevent again...

That's the type of ignorance that I find intolerable. Tens of thousands of people make their living in this industry but you make it about the biggest of the big race owners.

Do you have any evidence to support your theory that the racing industry is in massive decline? Sure there is some declining revenue. Both most forms of entertainment are declining in this day and age. Look at movie and network TV revenue. The industry has actually grown significantly in the past 10 years.

It appears all the evidence I put forward that the industry produces more wealth than it takes for the slots are just ignored by ideologues who probably could care less about the welfare of rural Ontario, they don't vote Liberal afterall.

[Boges]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/ontario-budget-fallout-hits-horse-racing/article2383541/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Politics&utm_content=2383541

Look at all the rich people living off the government trough.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Boges

[MiddleClassCentrist]

That's the type of ignorance that I find intolerable. Tens of thousands of people make their living in this industry but you make it about the biggest race owners.

Do you have any evidence to support your theory that the racing industry is in massive decline? Sure there is some declining revenue. Both most forms of entertainment are declining in this day and age. Look at movie and network TV revenue. The industry has actually grown significantly in the past 10 years.

It appears all the evidence I put forward that the industry produces more wealth than it takes for the slots are just ignored by ideologues who probably could care less about the welfare of rural Ontario, they don't vote Liberal afterall.

OK but, if we are looking at it from the free market perspective, for instance that a conservative attempts to apply to all things they don't like, then they should receive no funding. Float or fail based on your performance in meeting consumer demands.

Let's look at something conservatives hate.

Public sector workers do cost taxes. However, they also need to spend money. By ensuring that more people have decent paying jobs, more economic activity is generated. Dentists, hair stylists, contractors, service technicians, all corporations rely on people being able to have a reasonable income to buy their product.

So, we can look at this the other way. If we are going to continue to give free money to businesses to generate economic activity, why are people so enraged at paying regular people who happen to work in the public sector good wages to generate economic activity?

Same end goal is accomplished: Increased Economic Activity

[MiddleClassCentrist]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/ontario-budget-fallout-hits-horse-racing/article2383541/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Politics&utm_content=2383541

Look at all the rich people living off the government trough.

Wealthy enough to put a full page advertisement to protect themselves in the Toronto Star.

[Boges]

OK but, if we are looking at it from the free market perspective, for instance that a conservative attempts to apply to all things they don't like, then they should receive no funding. Float or fail based on your performance in meeting consumer demands.

Let's look at something conservatives hate.

Public sector workers do cost taxes. However, they also need to spend money. By ensuring that more people have decent paying jobs, more economic activity is generated. Dentists, hair stylists, contractors, service technicians, all corporations rely on people being able to have a reasonable income to buy their product.

So, we can look at this the other way. If we are going to continue to give free money to businesses to generate economic activity, why are people so enraged at paying regular people who happen to work in the public sector good wages to generate economic activity?

Same end goal is accomplished: Increased Economic Activity

Yes but using that same logic the government should allow competition for the OLG. They regulate gambling. I'm sure if the racetrack owners could install their own slots this issue would be moot. You can't preach free-market when this isn't about the free market at all. It's about the government's monopoly on gambling revenue.

We see the same thing regarding the sale of alcohol. Nothing free-market about that.

In 1998 they wanted to install those slots to compete with the service the tracks provided. Now granted they've grown to rely on it but it's also created a great deal of wealth beyond the initial investment. Not just from Ontario but Americans want to do business in Canada because of the generous purses. It's a win-win.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Boges

[Boges]

Public sector workers do cost taxes. However, they also need to spend money. By ensuring that more people have decent paying jobs, more economic activity is generated. Dentists, hair stylists, contractors, service technicians, all corporations rely on people being able to have a reasonable income to buy their product.

You could also argue paying such wildly inflated wages to public servants creates an unneeded burden on the rest of the populace who has to foot the bill for their free pensions and bankable sick days. This lowers their disposable income and ultimately hurts the economy.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Boges

[Boges]

Here is a real cut. How about dropping the $3.5 billion in business subsidies? If we can't afford them, why are we providing them? Corporate welfare and handouts should be the least of our concerns. Corporations don't care if they received welfare last year, if they'll make money moving their business today, they will do it.

I pointed this one out a long time ago. (in a thread)

In 4 years or so (God knows what the price of hydro will be then) when this program is finished people will get a rude awakening when they see the real price of hydro.

I don't McDalton will be in power then though.

He did this to try and divert people's attention from the fact he's fleecing people on the price of hydro.