Transgender Discrimination in Canada

[Black Dog]

Why would that person want to be in a miss universe pageant anyway if they don't even consider themselves a female?

come on B.C, you're smarter than this!!

Fact remains: by your own criteria, if an F to M trans person wanted to compete, you'd pretty much have to allow them.

[stopstaaron]

BUT transgendered people have tried to compete in women's sports where their genetics do give him/her an advantage.

I don't think that is fair at all to the rest of the women.

[stopstaaron]

Fact remains: by your own criteria, if an F to M trans person wanted to compete, you'd pretty much have to allow them.

No, that wouldn't even happen because that person thinks they are a guy, not a girl

[bush_cheney2004]

Why would that person want to be in a miss universe pageant anyway if they don't even consider themselves a female?

come on B.C, you're smarter than this!!

Well, I think I have just demonstrated that I am at least smarter than you!

[Black Dog]

No, that wouldn't even happen because that person thinks they are a guy, not a girl

Do you understand what a hypothetical is?

[stopstaaron]

The "I know you are, but what am I" defense is always very effective.

Or the "I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you"

[Boges]

Fact remains: by your own criteria, if an F to M trans person wanted to compete, you'd pretty much have to allow them.

I doubt that person would get past the first round. Have you seen what Chastity ERRR Chaz Bono looks like?

[stopstaaron]

Do you understand what a hypothetical is?

There are likely hypothetical situations and there are very unlikely hypothetical situations and this one is a very unlikely hypothetical scenario

[Black Dog]

I doubt that person would get past the first round. Have you seen what Chastity ERRR Chaz Bono looks like?

Irrelevant.

[stopstaaron]

Irrelevant.

Why is that irrelevant?

[Boges]

Irrelevant.

You're playing logic arguements with olphan ERRR stopstaaron. You clearly haven't seen him debate in other threads.

[Black Dog]

There are likely hypothetical situations and there are very unlikely hypothetical situations and this one is a very unlikely hypothetical scenario

I don't think it's that unlikely. For example, someone could do it just to make a point about the "female born" policy.

But the probability of such a event transpiring or not has no bearing on the fundamental flaw in your logic the scenario exposes.

[stopstaaron]

I don't think it's that unlikely. For example, someone could do it just to make a point about the "female born" policy.

But the probability of such a event transpiring or not has no bearing on the fundamental flaw in your logic the scenario exposes.

I see no flaw in my logic. If a female went through all the trouble and surgery to become a male why would she enter a "miss" universe Canada beauty pageant? She rejected the gender she was born as. She's not going to think, oh, I'm a female now

[stopstaaron]

What should be the source of controversy is the owner of this pageant is Donald Trump. An American billionaire owns the miss universe Canada beauty pageant

[Black Dog]

I see no flaw in my logic.

Of course not. That doesn't mean it's not there, plain as day.

If a female went through all the trouble and surgery to become a male why would she enter a "miss" universe Canada beauty pageant? She rejected the gender she was born as. She's not going to think, oh, I'm a female now

Irrelevant. You said the rules allow any "natural born" female to compete in the pageant, ergo a F to M trans person should be able to compete if they so desired.

[stopstaaron]

Irrelevant. You said the rules allow any "natural born" female to compete in the pageant, ergo a F to M trans person should be able to compete if they so desired.

Actually, no, see, you have to qualify.. like you have to be a finalist to be entered into this Miss Universe Canada pageant.. "he" would not make it to the finals

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron

[Black Dog]

Actually, no, see, you have to qualify.. like you have to be a finalist to be entered into this Miss Universe Canada pageant.. "she" would not make it to the finals

Miss Universe Canada contestants must meet a basic requirement of being a Canadian citizen and between the ages of 18 and 27 to compete.

They also must not be married, pregnant, and have to fill out a more comprehensive form if they meet the basic requirements.

There is no mention of rules regarding sex-changes or cosmetic surgery.

Link

[Boges]

Of course not. That doesn't mean it's not there, plain as day.

Irrelevant. You said the rules allow any "natural born" female to compete in the pageant, ergo a F to M trans person should be able to compete if they so desired.

Would a rule banning anyone "transgendered" from competing be out of line? They are easy to define as an identifiable group.

"This is a competition for only natural born women, who identify as a woman" That would do a round-a-bout from your logic argument would it not?

Now I have no idea what the rules of who can enter this competition are, but I suspect after this story there may be a rule prohibiting the transgendered.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Boges

[stopstaaron]

Link

The judges are not going to allow a "man" who was once a "woman" to move further into the competition and qualify to be in this pageant,.. that's also going to make the other contestants uncomfortable.

[Black Dog]

Would a rule banning anyone "transgendered" from competing be out of line? They are easy to define as an identifiable group.

"This is a competition for only natural born women, who identify as a woman" That would do a round-a-bout from your logic argument would it not?

Now I have no idea what the rules of who can enter this competition are, but I suspect after this story there may be a rule prohibiting the transgendered.

Still, allegedly, in the eyes of the Miss Universe Canada administration, original gonads are a non-negotiable. Which, of course, elicits the question of what it means to be a “natural” woman. Would a girl born with MRHK Syndrome — that is, without a uterus, fallopian tubes and a structurally typical vagina — be prohibited from competing for Miss Universe Canada? What about a girl who fails to begin menstruation? And what degree of hermaphroditism at birth would be tolerated for a would-be contestant in her later years? I ask partly in jest, but these question do become relevant when a contestant, who believed herself female since the age of four, is disqualified for having had the wrong parts.

Why are we to believe Talackova is less a woman than her female-since-birth competitors, many of whom dye their hair, paint their nails, inject their lips, and plump up their breasts with silicone and saline? If Miss Universe Canada is going to insist that its contestants are “natural” women, it should, indeed, insist that its contestants are real women. Or at least provide some guidance as to how much surgical tweaking a woman can undergo before crossing the line from “natural woman” to “we wish her the best.”

Link

[Boges]

The judges are not going to allow a "man" who was once a "woman" to move further into the competition and qualify to be in this pageant,.. that's also going to make the other contestants uncomfortable.

He already said that their ability to move on in the competition is irrelevant. The question here is just meeting the basic requirements.

Sort of like if an open homosexual would try and receive Catholic communion. It may not be something they want, but the are just trying to expose some perceived bigotry.

[stopstaaron]

Sort of like if an open homosexual would try and receive Catholic communion. It may not be something they want, but the are just trying to expose some perceived bigotry.

The Catholic Church sees homosexuals as an abomination .. I don't think they'd have to try and receive a Catholic communion to expose the "bigotry"

I really do not like that word, people toss it around so freely

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron

[stopstaaron]

Link

Now you're grasping at straws. A natural woman can make modifications to her own female body that would still make her female. You can't compare that with a male who decided they were a female and then got surgery to look the part.

Apples and oranges

Edited March 27, 2012 by stopstaaron

[Black Dog]

Now you're grasping at straws. A natural woman can make modifications to her own female body that would still make her female. You can't compare that with a male who decided they were a female and then got surgery to look the part.

So where exactly is your arbitrary line between real woman and fake? After all if a woman can make modifications to her own female body that would still make her female, it stands to reason that a "natural woman" can make modifications to her own body that would maker her male in every respect and still be considered a natural woman by your logic.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Black Dog

[stopstaaron]

So where exactly is your arbitrary line between real woman and fake?

A real woman is a woman that was born a female and who hasn't surgically altered their appearance to resemble a man