F-35 purchase undecided, Fantino says

[Smallc]

Now that the F-35 has become politically embarrassing, Harper will dump it like last week's garbage. The Opposition will immediately demand a new, open procurement process that MUST choose a different plane! Of course, no such plane exists.

What are you talking about? Even if the F-35 is the only fifth generation fighter available (it is), that doesn't mean that A ) there aren't other aircraft, and B ), the F-35 won't be the winner of an open competition.

[dre]

Spider, I'm afraid that it would seem that's EXACTLY where we will end up! It's just the way Canada ALWAYS does these things!

Now that the F-35 has become politically embarrassing, Harper will dump it like last week's garbage. The Opposition will immediately demand a new, open procurement process that MUST choose a different plane! Of course, no such plane exists.

We will likely still be flying our F-18s 25 years from now. The occasional one will fall out of the sky but no one will care. On peacekeeping missions Canada's squadron will be kept far in the back, so that they won't get in the way of the countries doing the REAL fighting!

It's a shame. We just seem to be totally useless at this sort of thing.

Now that the F-35 has become politically embarrassing, Harper will dump it like last week's garbage. The Opposition will immediately demand a new, open procurement process that MUST choose a different plane! Of course, no such plane exists.

Well thats their own fault... they became obsessed with the first shiny object that floated into view and decided they had to have that no matter what the cost. They didnt do any of the HARD WORK that needs to go into procurement.

And if theres an open competition, and the F-35 is the best plane for the job it will win!

[capricorn]

I've lost count on the number of times that Conservative critics have taken the government to task for disrespecting and attacking federal bureaucrats. Now with the F-35 file, the Harper Government places its confidence in the advice provided by the bureaucracy at DND, Industry Canada and Public Works, and it blows up in their face.

Next, we have the opposition accusing Conservatives of wilfully misleading Parliament and Canadians with faulty information, when all the while the information provided to the Conservatives was faulty to begin with. Then Bob Rae demands that Harper take full responsibility for the project's cock-up by stepping down.

You can't make this stuff up.

This in no way absolves the Conservative government from acting on the AG's scathing report to make things right with respect to this important and costly military acquisition. They're just a couple of random observations of how entertaining our politics and politicians can be.

[Wild Bill]

Well thats their own fault... they became obsessed with the first shiny object that floated into view and decided they had to have that no matter what the cost. They didnt do any of the HARD WORK that needs to go into procurement.

And if theres an open competition, and the F-35 is the best plane for the job it will win!

No Dr. Dre, that's not the way things work in politics! The EH-101 was the only suitable helicopter for our needs and Chretien deliberately skewed the specs to lock it out of contention.

Once something becomes politically embarrassing it is no longer relevant if it is the best choice to do the job. Politicians care about themselves first and foremost! Being the best for our troops is WAY down the list!

You may think I'm just cynical but I'm confident that the coming months will prove me right. We will end up with nothing truly useful for the job. Canada will go back to being a freeloader nation, bumming from the US and other countries to handle its defense and then complaining that no one takes us seriously.

You can't expect other nations to respect your sovereignty when you are a pushover country that expects every other country to pay its tab!

[Wild Bill]

Maybe it's well disguised genius - envision a heron in eagle's clothing...we make our allies think we're really incompetent at deciding what to waste spend our money on and in the process never spend waste any at all.

Yeah, we're really good at freeloading, aren't we? We have had occasions in recent history where we were told to just stay back out of the way, such as the Kosovo conflict.

It would seem likely that sooner or later our allies will grow tired of our perpetual mooching and just tell us to hit the road!

Perhaps even in less polite terms!

[capricorn]

Canada will go back to being a freeloader nation, bumming from the US and other countries to handle its defense and then complaining that no one takes us seriously.

You can't expect other nations to respect your sovereignty when you are a pushover country that expects every other country to pay its tab!

That would bring us to a re-think of our role in NATO and NORAD. I'm certain that's a debate the anti-militarist crowd, notably the NDPQ, would welcome.

[stopstaaron]

Actually I'd expect every country to respect our soveriegnty because its law

of they don't it is not our fault

[stopstaaron]

Yeah, we're really good at freeloading, aren't we? We have had occasions in recent history where we were told to just stay back out of the way, such as the Kosovo conflict.

It would seem likely that sooner or later our allies will grow tired of our perpetual mooching and just tell us to hit the road!

Perhaps even in less polite terms!

US is not going to tell us to hit the road.. we are too deep in with them on every scale

[stopstaaron]

If this was the DNDs fault then why hasnt anyone been fired?

Should heads not roll if the DnD lied to the government?

Edited April 4, 2012 by stopstaaron

[dre]

We will end up with nothing truly useful for the job. Canada will go back to being a freeloader nation, bumming from the US and other countries to handle its defense and then complaining that no one takes us seriously.

What? Canada has never been that. We have fought in a half dozen wars for OTHER PEOPLE while never asking anything at all in return.

Its the rest of the world freeloading off of us...

[Smallc]

What? Canada has never been that. We have fought in a half dozen wars for OTHER PEOPLE while never asking anything at all in return.

Pretty much. What a misinterpretation of the costs.

[eyeball]

Yeah, we're really good at freeloading, aren't we? We have had occasions in recent history where we were told to just stay back out of the way, such as the Kosovo conflict.

It would seem likely that sooner or later our allies will grow tired of our perpetual mooching and just tell us to hit the road!

Perhaps even in less polite terms!

Look, quit your whining or hit the road.

Put your money where our mouth is and use donations or war bonds to fund your goddamn military adventures. The protection of the world's ecosystems pretty much has to rely on charity these days so why should the things you want to protect in the world get special treatment?

Of course I'd still insist you only be allowed to embark after you get a super-majority in all provinces and especially only after we review and hold a national plebiscite on who our allies should be and why.

[eyeball]

I'm not sure if 'bumming a ride' qualifies as freeloading, but it would be nice if when asked for our assistance, we can at least find our own ride.

I feel exactly the same way when the war-hawks insist my money be used for their bloody ends.

Dip a little deeper into your own damn pockets I say.

[dre]

I'm not sure if 'bumming a ride' qualifies as freeloading, but it would be nice if when asked for our assistance, we can at least find our own ride.

We are small country with a small military budget. Its not in our national interests to spend a lot of money on the capacity to project force around the globe. And that doesnt matter because at the end of the day we are one of the only countries willing to really do the hard work. Anybody can fly over a country and drop bombs... but Canada actually puts boots and the ground and troops in harms way when most the nato countries do little or nothing.

Tell me how our ten years in Afghanistan was "free loading". Or better yet tell that to the families of troops who paid the ultimate price over there.

[stopstaaron]

The report came out 8 hours ago, patience man.

in reality that Walter guy, Fantino and Mackay should be fired

[Wild Bill]

Tell me how our ten years in Afghanistan was "free loading". Or better yet tell that to the families of troops who paid the ultimate price over there.

Dre, I agree that our troops paid the ultimate price. Just not Canada!

Our politicians sent them over there with only arctic camo , for Christs' Sake! When it was discovered that the troops were making their own camo with materials they bought with their own money we saw groups of little old ladies making up kits and sending them over to our men and women!

We gave and still give them trucks so old that the rims often collapse from having rusted through! Our F-18s flew in Kosovo with electronics so old and obsolete that they couldn't read the scrambled NATO communications so they had to stay out of the combat front. Even the IFF signals that told friend from foe weren't reliable.

For the first couple of years in Afghanistan we lost lives due to a lack of our own helicopter transport. The other countries understandably put their own needs first. Do you seriously think they buy and deliver extra in case Canada needs to bum a ride?

We also lost lives from a lack of Armored Personnel Carriers, making our troops ride in vehicles with an almost total lack of protection against IEDs!

And on and on and on! This sort of thing is NORMAL for Canada! Even in WWI and WWII when the balloon went up we had bugger all of an army and enough materiel to equip them! We needed months to try to catch up. We actually trained our troops with broomsticks!

Now we live in times where we don't get months or years to catch up. Today's engagements are "come as you are". If you aren't ready then you can't effectively fight and if you try you will likely just get killed.

Accusing me of not respecting our troops is a cheap diversion, my good Dr. Dre and not worthy of you. My disrespect is placed squarely on those who make policy! And those who support politicians who force our military into roles without proper equipment!

Now some people want us to choose a plane that will have no stealth - a flying bullseye for modern combat.

Perhaps we should try to use only unmanned drones and machinery. As a nation, we obviously don't really give a damn for the lives of our troops!

I'm the Utilitarian, remember? It's bad enough when politicians come out with domestic programs that don't work but when they do it with soldier's lives then I can only be disgusted!

[stopstaaron]

Bill.. you're just making a case for us to not get involved in world conflicts... Canada will never be a country that spends an enormous amount on military.. that will never be Canada

[stopstaaron]

Anyways, somebody has to go down for the mismanagement and the deceit ..since the CPC are claiming DND lied to them the man who has to go down firstly is General Walter J. Natynczyk. After sacking him and whoever he was in cahoots with in the DND, a good case could be made to fire Peter MacKay. I think Fantino as well.

However, if NOT ONE of these men fall on their sword.. it will be obvious that our Prime Minister is not fit to run this country

Edited April 4, 2012 by stopstaaron

[bush_cheney2004]

Bill.. you're just making a case for us to not get involved in world conflicts... Canada will never be a country that spends an enormous amount on military.. that will never be Canada

Never say never....Canada spend plenty during WW2 and as much as 8% of GDP through 1951. Today, Canada has quietly become the 14th biggest spender in the world.

[stopstaaron]

Never say never....Canada spend plenty during WW2 and as much as 8% of GDP through 1951. Today, Canada has quietly become the 14th biggest spender in the world.

I think Bill wants Canada to spend as much as Britain and the U.S

[Spiderfish]

Anyways, somebody has to go down for the mismanagement and the deceit ..since the CPC are claiming DND lied to them the man who has to go down firstly is General Walter J. Natynczyk. After sacking him and whoever he was in cahoots with in the DND, a good case could be made to fire Peter MacKay. I think Fantino as well.

However, if NOT ONE of these men fall on their sword.. it will be obvious that our Prime Minister is not fit to run this country

Don't you ever stop and actually read some of the stuff you post? The CPC are not claiming anyone lied to them, it was the Auditor General that made that accusation. You are so keyed up on accusing the conservatives of absolutely everything, you have no interest in facts, only rhetorical garbage. As I said previously...patience.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Spiderfish

[stopstaaron]

Don't you ever stop and actually read some of the stuff you post? The CPC are not claiming anyone lied to them, it was the Auditor General that made that accusation. You are so keyed up on accusing the conservatives of absolutely everything, you have no interest in facts, only rhetorical garbage. As I said previously...patience.

That's even worse then because that means the government could have been involved in this deceit

either way, I doubt you have the stomach to demand resignations

you will probably want to give them a medal

Edited April 4, 2012 by stopstaaron

[bush_cheney2004]

I think Bill wants Canada to spend as much as Britain and the U.S

I doubt that....1.5% of GDP is lower than other NATO partners. Canada also takes advantage of other nation's development and deployment efforts without contributing much R&D.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogscript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A3746e462-d9f3-43bd-90d2-769ec8209630

[Spiderfish]

That's even worse then because that means the government could have been involved in this deceit

either way, I doubt you have the stomach to demand resignations

you will probably want to give them a medal

Hey, right on...another conservative scandal. Run with it skippy.

[stopstaaron]

Hey, right on...another conservative scandal. Run with it skippy.

I read the report it said DND picked the F35s in 2006.. same year the conservatives were elected

this is their scandal... cant blame the liberals for this, all the lies started when the conservatives took over