The Drummond Report

[mentalfloss]

Who cares what a guy with a journalism degree from g&m thinks? Do you form your opinions on what uninformed journalists tell you?

What makes his opinion uninformed?

[Guest Peeves]

CPCFTW you indeed make sense. Unfortunately government's main agenda is to get re elected, AKA buy voters with whatever it takes and sucker voters think the government is giving them something free.

They are,a reaming without any lubricant.

[guyser]

Who cares what a guy with a journalism degree from g&m thinks? Do you form your opinions on what uninformed journalists tell you?

The only one uninformed here is you. How about we make that woefully uninformed ?

Jeffrey Simpson has...

-graduated from U of T,Queens and London School of Economics (uninformed )

- 3 literary awards.

-Globe and Mail Ottawa Bureau Chief

-Fellowships at Stanford , Queens , UBC , U of Alta , Georgetown Uni

-Doctorates from UBC , Western Ont , Queeens , Manitoba U , Windsor U and Kings College.

.....you can post your achievements anytime you want.

[TheNewTeddy]

Corporate taxes only have a direct effect on one group: upper middle class workers. If you make $60,000, a corporate tax cut will increase your wages.

As for Simpson, I read his book The Friendly Dictatorship, and found it sub-par, but the worst insult against the man: he is an Ottawa Senators fan.

Sorry for being so harsh, but the truth had to come out sooner or later.

[Argus]

35%

Seems to be lower then G8 countries, right?

What you are neglecting is that Ontario does not have the same means of increasing revenues that a state does.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Argus

[Smallc]

What you are neglecting is that Ontario does not have the same means of increasing revenues that a state does.

What means does it lack?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

What means does it lack?

The ability to stop Alberta's oil sands from being subsidized, increasing our dollar even further, giving us even more "Dutch Disease".

Ontario's resource is people... with a petrol dollar created by Alberta, our people aren't as competitive.

The problem ISN'T Ontario's size of government.(per capita) Ontario's government is actually smaller than Alberta's and Quebec's when factoring in size of population. The problem is that Ontario can't fund it's smaller than Alberta government with the petrol dollar killing it's growth.

Ontario needs to smarten up and elect an anti-oil sands government, to bring the dollar back down if it wants to compete.

Edited February 17, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[CPCFTW]

The only one uninformed here is you. How about we make that woefully uninformed ?

Jeffrey Simpson has...

-graduated from U of T,Queens and London School of Economics (uninformed )

- 3 literary awards.

-Globe and Mail Ottawa Bureau Chief

-Fellowships at Stanford , Queens , UBC , U of Alta , Georgetown Uni

-Doctorates from UBC , Western Ont , Queeens , Manitoba U , Windsor U and Kings College.

.....you can post your achievements anytime you want.

Quite the academic. I'm on a cellphone so I couldn't open the link. Far greater credentials than most journalists. You'll have to excuse my incredulity.

[TheNewTeddy]

The ability to stop Alberta's oil sands from being subsidized, increasing our dollar even further, giving us even more "Dutch Disease".

Ontario's resource is people... with a petrol dollar created by Alberta, our people aren't as competitive.

The problem ISN'T Ontario's size of government.(per capita) Ontario's government is actually smaller than Alberta's and Quebec's when factoring in size of population. The problem is that Ontario can't fund it's smaller than Alberta government with the petrol dollar killing it's growth.

Ontario needs to smarten up and elect an anti-oil sands government, to bring the dollar back down if it wants to compete.

Just become a Separatist like me! An "Ontario Dollar" at .75 cents would bring us right back to life. The great thing is that the kind of currency that would help us would also help Quebec (who would also bolt if we left) and we could create a new dollar between us that has 60% of the population and GDP of the old Canadian Dollar behind it. Leave the PetroDollar for the west, where it is useful.

[Evening Star]

I don't sneeze at his achievements at all, to be clear, but surely those doctorates are honorary, right?

The only one uninformed here is you. How about we make that woefully uninformed ?

Jeffrey Simpson has...

-graduated from U of T,Queens and London School of Economics (uninformed )

- 3 literary awards.

-Globe and Mail Ottawa Bureau Chief

-Fellowships at Stanford , Queens , UBC , U of Alta , Georgetown Uni

-Doctorates from UBC , Western Ont , Queeens , Manitoba U , Windsor U and Kings College.

.....you can post your achievements anytime you want.

[CPCFTW]

Right.

That's why I said, in addition to. And the rate should be raised by 10% as that would create a $1 Billion bonus every year.

Also, keep in mind, that there is no evidence to support that a change in corporate taxes will actually have any significant effect on consumers. Companies will still make a profit.

G&M is getting on board with the program:

Governments, especially the McGuinty government, refused to tell the truth to the electorate. They kept assuming, and hoping, that the robust economic times of yesteryear would return. And they did two things simultaneously: They refused to raise taxes, and they kept on adding new spending programs or letting existing ones expand. In the last election campaign, none of the parties came remotely close to levelling with the voters.

Ontario can no longer hide from taxes, restraint

Ok I actually read your link now. Where in the hell does it say to raise corporate taxes? Mr. Simpson actually specifies which taxes to raise:

The NDP answered every challenge with a call for higher corporate taxes, as if that alone would make difficulties vanish. A more puerile, populist response could scarcely be imagined, except for those proposed by the other parties.

The flight from reality that has characterized Ontario’s political culture has been completely challenged by the Drummond report. There’s no longer any place to hide – although, if one exists, we can expect the politicians at Queen’s Park to discover it.

Mr. Drummond’s mandate precluded any study of tax hikes. Ontario will need them (a rise in the sales tax and personal income tax surtax on the affluent), along with serious spending restraints, to climb out of the fiscal hole so accurately and painstakingly described by Mr. Drummond’s team.

I guess some people read what they want to read...

Your arguments for raising corporate taxes are about as weak as the NDP's. They should be raised by 10% to create 900M of revenue when there is a 15B shortfall? You could double corporate taxes and still have a 6B shortfall.

There is no evidence that raising taxes will have a significant effect on consumers? Re-read my above post, I explained exactly the effects of raising corporate taxes. You don't have to have Jeffrey Simpson's resume to understand what I wrote.

Edited February 22, 2012 by CPCFTW

[mentalfloss]

I never meant to imply that the article stated corporate taxes specifically - that's just what I believe is a necessary measure to take regarding revenues.

Your $15 billion shortfall is a total amount, whereas the revenue from raising corporate taxes alone is $1 billion/year.

Again, there is no evidence that raising corporate taxes by 10% will have a truly detrimental effect on the economy.

Edited February 22, 2012 by mentalfloss

[fellowtraveller]

i'm pretty sure you're wrong on that. Having Drummond do the report gives the government cover to make the difficult choices.

Yep, it is a classic dodge in the public sector and certainly not unknown in the private sector.

Usually though they bring in somebody like KPMG or Deloitte (hello federal govt).

Management already knows what they need to do and how to do it, but lack the spine to just come out and say it. So they hire an outsider, hand them a tidy package of numbers complete with inescapable outcomes and conclusions. The consultant repackages the info and hands it back as a sombre report, at which time the govt says wow that is shocking we must act!

It is all theatre.

[CPCFTW]

I never meant to imply that the article stated corporate taxes specifically - that's just what I believe is a necessary measure to take regarding revenues.

Your $15 billion shortfall is a total amount, whereas the revenue from raising corporate taxes alone is $1 billion/year.

Again, there is no evidence that raising corporate taxes by 10% will have a truly detrimental effect on the economy.

You said "G&M is getting on board with the program", when we were talking about raising corporate taxes. You won't get any argument from me that massive cuts need to happen. But raising corporate taxes is a self-defeating proposition. Join us in 2012.

[mentalfloss]

You said "G&M is getting on board with the program", when we were talking about raising corporate taxes. You won't get any argument from me that massive cuts need to happen. But raising corporate taxes is a self-defeating proposition. Join us in 2012.

Again, no evidence to show that a 10% raise in corporate taxes will cause economic harm.

Edited February 22, 2012 by mentalfloss

[CPCFTW]

Again, no evidence to show that a 10% raise in corporate taxes will cause economic harm.

Again, even assuming the best case scenario of no economic harm, a 10% raise in corporate taxes would only cover 6% of the budgetary shortfall. It's a meaningless populist gesture.

[guyser]

I don't sneeze at his achievements at all, to be clear, but surely those doctorates are honorary, right?

They may be, may not be, but either way they are given out based on merit and service, for the most part.

That aside, the grad degrees alone are impressive enough.

[mentalfloss]

Again, even assuming the best case scenario of no economic harm, a 10% raise in corporate taxes would only cover 6% of the budgetary shortfall. It's a meaningless populist gesture.

$1 Billion/year in revenue is not meaningless at all.

We're all in agreement that this is only one part of the strategy anyway, so please - keep your panties from getting in a bunch.

Edited February 23, 2012 by mentalfloss

[CPCFTW]

$1 Billion/year in revenue is not meaningless at all.

We're all in agreement that this is only one part of the strategy anyway, so please - keep your panties from getting in a bunch.

Yes it is meaningless. This isn't Austin Powers. You can't say "1 BILLION DOLLARS" to give it meaning.

Ratings agencies and Canada's creditors won't be impacted in anyway by Canada reducing it's deficit from 14.1B instead of 15B.

I've never disputed that significant cuts need to be made. I am simply responding to your ridiculous post in which you tried to claim that corporate taxes need to be raised by 5% because of "this infographic". The infographic you provided didn't support your assertion and I called you on it.

They should do most of the above and raise corporate taxes by 5%.

Take a look at this infographic to see why:

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/drummondreport3.jpg

It sounds more and more like you looked at a fancy chart, decided that it would be a good opportunity for you to bash corporate tax rates, and didn't think that anyone would take the time to look at your link.

Edited February 24, 2012 by CPCFTW

[mentalfloss]

It sounds more and more like you looked at a fancy chart, decided that it would be a good opportunity for you to bash corporate tax rates, and didn't think that anyone would take the time to look at your link.

What's to bash?

Enable all reasonable cost saving measures you want. In addition to that, enact a 10% corporate tax hike and save an extra billion dollars a year.

Everyone's happy.

Edited February 24, 2012 by mentalfloss

[CPCFTW]

What's to bash?

Enable all reasonable cost saving measures you want. In addition to that, enact a 10% corporate tax hike and save an extra billion dollars a year.

Everyone's happy.

What a joke. Raising taxes is not "saving". It is taking more money to pay for bloated services. You truly are clueless.

How about this?

Enable all reasonable cost saving measures you want. In addition to that, cut education and health spending by 20% and save $14B dollars a year.

Now we can cut personal and corporate taxes.

Everyone's happy!

Take a look at this infographic to see why:

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/drummondreport3.jpg

This argument brought to you by the Mentalfloss School of Arguing.

Edited February 24, 2012 by CPCFTW

[mentalfloss]

What a joke. Raising taxes is not "saving". It is taking more money to pay for bloated services.

Raising taxes is taking money to pay for bloated services?

Are all services "bloated"?

Is raising taxes by a small increment versus a large increment irrelevent to you?

You see, no one will take you seriously if you continue to make this kind of armchair analysis.

[Smallc]

Cut health by 20%? Are you on some kind of drug?

[CPCFTW]

Cut health by 20%? Are you on some kind of drug?

Obviously it would never happen although I certainly wouldn't mind privatizing the whole thing.

But my response was clearly just an imitation of mentalfloss' arbitrary "raise corporate taxes because I say so" argument.

You must be on some kind of drug to not comprehend that.

[CPCFTW]

Raising taxes is taking money to pay for bloated services?

Are all services "bloated"?

Is raising taxes by a small increment versus a large increment irrelevent to you?

You see, no one will take you seriously if you continue to make this kind of armchair analysis.

Yes nearly all public services are bloated. 10% is not a small increment and corporate taxes don't need to be raised at all. You have never made any argument why corporate taxes need to be raised other than "look at this infographic" and "it will save $1B". No one will take you seriously if those are the best arguments you can come up with.

If you're going to raise taxes, then, just like the article you already posted suggested, raise them on the wealthy (employment income only) and consumption, not on employers who create jobs and growth.

Edited February 24, 2012 by CPCFTW