jbg Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 The Indian Wars (and general expansion) took a break during the Civil War. The West was stripped of Regulars as they took sides and headed east...Lee being a typical example. But as soon as it was over, it was back to unfinished business.It took a holiday as being part of the history books. But people continued moving west. Kansas was admitted January 29, 1861. Admittedly the determination as to whether Kansas would be a free or slave state helped trigger the war. Nevada was admitted on October 31, 1864 and Nebraska was admitted March 1, 1867. At the very least, Nevada's admission had to do with meeting the normal criteria and had nothing to do with sectional politics. SO in that sense Western expansion did not stop. Great Britain, having toyed with helping the Confederates, once again worried about the border and the Union's attitude towards this aid*. It's not a coincidence that Canada became a reality less than two years after the end of the conflict. * Invasion again?? I suspect that no on e knew in advance when the USCW would stop, so Britain had already set the wheels in motion for Canada's independence on July 1, 1867. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I really don't agree with you on the U.S. objectives. I am an American citizen. However I have always been taught, and read, that the objective was very much to snatch much of Upper Canada. Since New England was anti-war, Lower Canada was never on the menu. That wasn't the objective; some war hawks wanted it, but it was never an objective of the war - and Britain didn't want to reclaim the colonies, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 That wasn't the objective; some war hawks wanted it, but it was never an objective of the war - and Britain didn't want to reclaim the colonies, either. Except that the "war hawks" were predominately from the South, as were the Presidents handling matters at the time, Jefferson and Madison. The objective on the part of those that pushed for the war was to grab Upper Canada. To be fair, impressment was an issue, though a secondary one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Except that the "war hawks" were predominately from the South, as were the Presidents handling matters at the time, Jefferson and Madison. The objective on the part of those that pushed for the war was to grab Upper Canada. To be fair, impressment was an issue, though a secondary one. No, impressment wasn't a secondary issue - and grabbing land from Canada wasn't an objective at all. The objectives were as I stated them: U.S. Objectives of the War of 1812 were as follows: * Get the British to repeal their Orders in Council, which placed severe trade restrictions on the Americans. * Get the British to stop the impressment of American sailors into the Royal Navy. * Assert Americans' rights to freedom of the seas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 No, impressment wasn't a secondary issue - and grabbing land from Canada wasn't an objective at all. AW, when I get home and get a moment (in the middle of some personal emergencies now) I will pull a book I read last summer and try to scan in part of the intro that discussed the motives for the war. I do not enjoy relying solely on memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 So are you saying that you wish Canada was part of America? America? Canada isn't in North America? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 The objectives were as I stated them: Yes, these were the main issues of the war as I came to know them in grade school, and later as a naval officer at the pen of Alfred Mahan's Sea Power. Never was the War of 1812 presented as a military victory in my experience, as the far more valuable outcome was a truly sovereign United States as recognized by the reigning world superpower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) [T]his war was a draw. Was it, really? In terms of material/territorial losses, both sides seem fairly equal. However, the US failed in its objective, whereas the Canadas succeeded in theirs. So, in one sense, the US lost the conflict. [ed.: c/e, +] Edited February 15, 2012 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Was it, really? In terms of material/territorial losses, both sides seem fairly equal. However, the US failed in its objective, whereas the Canadas succeeded in theirs. So, in one sense, the US lost the conflict. [ed.: c/e, +] It was once described to me that this war , from the american viewpoint , was like a sidebet in a poker game, which would mean from the Canuck viewpoint..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 From the American point of view, the war could have started much earlier because there were several unsettled issues that are to be expected anytime a bunch of rag tag traitors rise up and bite the Crown squarely in the arse! Britain's long engagement with France since 1803 only exacerbated the points of grievance. I understand why Canadians would cherish this conflict in "nationalist" terms, but methinks that context did not come to the fore in real time. It was about the cursed British all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It was once described to me that this war , from the american viewpoint , was like a sidebet in a poker game, which would mean from the Canuck viewpoint..... I am a proud American, but I take the Canadian point of view on this particular war. Sorry, fellow Americans on this Board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Britain's long engagement with France since 1803 only exacerbated the points of grievance. I understand why Canadians would cherish this conflict in "nationalist" terms, but methinks that context did not come to the fore in real time. It was about the cursed British all over again. Thats a good point to note. I do not recall much taught about the war of 1812 when I was in school. Now that could be I didnt pay attention , or I sucked at history (and I did...sooo boring..then,not now) The anniversary coming soon has caught the attention of many , I recd a Cdn goegraphic mag (Alan Abel) that did an excellent piece on it recently. It is now making news and of course the celebration planning is ongoing. Read an account of the re-staging battles that occur at Chrsylers Farm every year. One side thinks they won, the other the same. Historians have altered their thoughts since new info came forth. Such as the annexaton of Canada would be 'as easy as marching' (Madison) leading most to believe the land grab was in part the impetus. Historians now note that Madison wanted the land only to lever a deal with Britain. The question (one of many) is would Madison have given it back had he 'won' ? This to me is one of the reasons many call it a draw. But the idea to get the land was not achieved so in essence, a victory can be claimed. Ergo the poker rationale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 ....The question (one of many) is would Madison have given it back had he 'won' ? This to me is one of the reasons many call it a draw. But the idea to get the land was not achieved so in essence, a victory can be claimed. Ergo the poker rationale. Yes, I think he would have. We can look at the original Articles of Confederation which afforded Canadian "statehood", but was later extinguished in the US Constitution. America was like an awkward child, growing way too fast in all directions, sometimes violently. Britain would continue to negotiate a northern boundary with the Americans all the way to the Pacific coast. France and Spain got payed and bailed in the face of "Manifest Destiny". Mexico didn't get any choice! The rest, as they say, is history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 It took a holiday as being part of the history books. But people continued moving west. Kansas was admitted January 29, 1861. Admittedly the determination as to whether Kansas would be a free or slave state helped trigger the war. Nevada was admitted on October 31, 1864 and Nebraska was admitted March 1, 1867. At the very least, Nevada's admission had to do with meeting the normal criteria and had nothing to do with sectional politics. SO in that sense Western expansion did not stop. Like Bruce Catton, I see the whole slave question in the western territories (soon to be states) as part of the Civil War. I suspect that no on e knew in advance when the USCW would stop, so Britain had already set the wheels in motion for Canada's independence on July 1, 1867. Indeed...round about 1812-1815, I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Like Bruce Catton, I see the whole slave question in the western territories (soon to be states) as part of the Civil War. Right you are...Nevada used the new-fangled telegraph to get the state constitution to Washington just days before a presidential election and election advantage: Union sympathizers were so eager to gain statehood for Nevada that they rushed to send the entire state constitution by telegraph to the United States Congress before the presidential election and they did not believe that sending it by train would guarantee that it would arrive on time. The constitution was sent October 26-27, 1864, just two weeks before the election on November 7, 1864. The transmission took two days; it consisted of 16,543 words and cost $4303.27 to send. It was, at the time, the longest telegraph transmission ever made, a record it held for seventeen years, until a copy of the 118,000-word English Standard Version of the New Testament was sent by telegraph on May 22, 1881. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Yes, I think he would have. America was like an awkward child, growing way too fast in all directions, sometimes violently. The rest, as they say, is history. Looking at it now, and seeing the great relationship that developed shortly thereafter I would tend to agree with you. But maybe Madison would have come down with a case of Schadenfreude...damn sneaky yanks Some things will never be totally resolved. Hell , the South still thinks they won the War of Northern Aggression Edited February 16, 2012 by guyser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Looking at it now, and seeing the great relationship that developed shortly thereafter I would tend to agree with you. But maybe Madison would have come down with a case of Schadenfreude...damn sneaky yanks Some things will never be totally resolved. Hell , the South still thinks they won the War of Northern Aggression He says tongue in cheek, " And children that is why to this day when those Yankees go to war some simply run again, here to Canada,apparently a migrating pattern buried deeply in their psyche." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Simply the single most depressing occurrence in Canadian history....the US not taking the entire northern landmass as their own. Think about it: We wouldn't be a country that "hates the States" (except when convenient) We wouldn't be a country that whines to sit at the "big table" in international affairs The Liberals would never have existed We actually would have been known as a superpower Trudeau would never have been leader We wouldn't have this failure called "multiculturalism" The Liberals would never have existed Imagine the US with the oil reserves of Alberta - means never having to kiss China's ass Human Rights Commissions would never have existed Our smokes would be a hell of a lot cheaper I could live in Texas, Nevada, or Oklahoma without having to compete with a Mexican or an interior designer for entry Trudeau would never have been leader Toronto would have to kiss the ass of the REAL center of the universe Kwebek would have either fallen in line or be extinguished from the Earth My Harley Davidson parts wouldn't be 35% more expensive when the dollar is at par No NEP (...and I was going to say something about the Bastard Trudeau but I can't remember what it was...) Superbowl commercials Really, REALLY cool stuff for our armed forces Lower taxes No hidden two-tier health care - we'd finally have REAL two-tier health care. And three-tier. And four-tier. Ya, baby! And that bastard, Western Canadian-hating prick Trudeau would have lived and DIED without even being known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Haven't you moved yet? There are enough differences between Canada and the US that I am very thankful to live on this side of the border. There are few, if any, better countries on earth in which to live. If you don't appreciate it, leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Simply the single most depressing occurrence in Canadian history....the US not taking the entire northern landmass as their own. Think about it: We wouldn't be a country that "hates the States" (except when convenient) We wouldn't be a country that whines to sit at the "big table" in international affairs The Liberals would never have existed We actually would have been known as a superpower Trudeau would never have been leader We wouldn't have this failure called "multiculturalism" The Liberals would never have existed Imagine the US with the oil reserves of Alberta - means never having to kiss China's ass Human Rights Commissions would never have existed Our smokes would be a hell of a lot cheaper I could live in Texas, Nevada, or Oklahoma without having to compete with a Mexican or an interior designer for entry Trudeau would never have been leader Toronto would have to kiss the ass of the REAL center of the universe Kwebek would have either fallen in line or be extinguished from the Earth My Harley Davidson parts wouldn't be 35% more expensive when the dollar is at par No NEP (...and I was going to say something about the Bastard Trudeau but I can't remember what it was...) Superbowl commercials Really, REALLY cool stuff for our armed forces Lower taxes No hidden two-tier health care - we'd finally have REAL two-tier health care. And three-tier. And four-tier. Ya, baby! And that bastard, Western Canadian-hating prick Trudeau would have lived and DIED without even being known. Trudeau certainly would have existed. He was far more charismatic than the U.S. President he so obviously patterned himself after (down to marital infidelity), John F. Kennedy; Canada is simply a great country, so even if some of your knitpicks are literally true, I still prefer the way it worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 No, still haven't moved. All they're offering right now is Williamsport, PA or Minot, ND and I have no interest in either. Waiting for either Tulsa, OK or one of our western Texas/NM locations as my home base. As for your assertion of just how good Canada is...let's just say I'm glad I'm Albertan and not Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 As for your assertion of just how good Canada is...let's just say I'm glad I'm Albertan and not Canadian. What you really are is a joke. Albertans, after all, are generally shown to be the most patriotic of Canadians. Enjoy Minot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 What you really are is a joke. Albertans, after all, are generally shown to be the most patriotic of Canadians. Enjoy Minot. I have a thing about loyalty being a very high value. I have no truck with separatists, whether Albertan or Quebecois. A traitor is a traitor. And I am not saying Hydraboss is a traitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Simply the single most depressing occurrence in Canadian history....the US not taking the entire northern landmass as their own. Think about it: We wouldn't be a country that "hates the States" (except when convenient) We wouldn't be a country that whines to sit at the "big table" in international affairs The Liberals would never have existed We actually would have been known as a superpower Trudeau would never have been leader We wouldn't have this failure called "multiculturalism" The Liberals would never have existed Imagine the US with the oil reserves of Alberta - means never having to kiss China's ass Human Rights Commissions would never have existed Our smokes would be a hell of a lot cheaper I could live in Texas, Nevada, or Oklahoma without having to compete with a Mexican or an interior designer for entry Trudeau would never have been leader Toronto would have to kiss the ass of the REAL center of the universe Kwebek would have either fallen in line or be extinguished from the Earth My Harley Davidson parts wouldn't be 35% more expensive when the dollar is at par No NEP (...and I was going to say something about the Bastard Trudeau but I can't remember what it was...) Superbowl commercials Really, REALLY cool stuff for our armed forces Lower taxes No hidden two-tier health care - we'd finally have REAL two-tier health care. And three-tier. And four-tier. Ya, baby! And that bastard, Western Canadian-hating prick Trudeau would have lived and DIED without even being known. And loonies and toonies and 2 languages on my cereal box...well maybe a leeetle Spanish. And no gravy on fries and no CBC and no border. And no Liberals or ass-h like that Trudeau fellah and his Jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 No, still haven't moved. All they're offering right now is Williamsport, PA or Minot, ND and I have no interest in either. Waiting for either Tulsa, OK or one of our western Texas/NM locations as my home base. As for your assertion of just how good Canada is...let's just say I'm glad I'm Albertan and not Canadian. I am too. Can we call you Oily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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