Canadian Nationalism

[idealisttotheend]

Looks like you (very slightly) got me there. He lost 6% of the popular vote too. Happens sometimes to anyone who stays in politics long enough. Maybe Cons didn't want to split the vote so they voted Alliance even if they prefered the PCs. Maybe a hundred million other things.

Nonetheless the argument is whether or not Clark destroyed the PC party. Charest may have gotten 20 seats in 1997 but that's really a pathetic number for a national party of the stature and history of the PC party (plus I think almost every one of the seats was in Eastern Canada). Where'd the votes go? The Bloc in Quebec and Reform out West. Again both parties were created out of disatisfaction with Mulroney and only Mulroney.

Unless Mr. Clark's excellent work in External affairs was what peed em off?

Consider also that even after Mr. Clark's "disappointing" loss in 1979 votes still came the PCs way in 84 while after Mr. Mulroney was done with the party, some , would consider 20 seats significant progress in the upward direction.

[takeanumber]

Sorry, I won't ever vote for a party that smacks of Mulroney.

Most Canadians won't either.

We got long memories here in Canada. That's why we still make fun of Clark, and that man screwed up long before Mulroney decided to pimp us out to the Americans, who promptly turned us on our backsides and rammed us without lube.

I won't for Harper. He's too much like Mulroney.

I didn't vote for Charest. He's WAY too much like Mulroney (even today.)

Let's get back to nationalism.

You can be a Liberal and be a nationalist.

You can be a free market liberal and still be a nationalist.

You can even be a firewaller, and still be a nationalist.

Things I'm most proud of about Canada:

1. We went to war to defend our freedoms, unlike Sweeden and Switzerland, and we did a damned good job at it. (See Vimy, Dieppe, Moreil Wood, Pascendale, Hong Kong, and the rebellion of 1837 for our brightest momments.)

2. We stayed out of wars that did not advance our own freedom. (See Iraq, Vietnam.)

3. We're multi-cultural. We're not xenophobic pricks like the kind they got in France or Austria or the Netherlands. Well, we have a few xenophobic pricks here in Canada, mainly second generation American immigrants, but they eventually go back home because they miss their church and the Republican party.

4. We fess up to our mistakes. (See: Japanese internment, aboriginal betrayals, residential schools, etc.)

5. Peacekeeping.

6. Holding high the banner of human rights.

7. Solid commitments to social mobility in 9 of the 10 provinces. (Alberta exempted: where it is generally believed that since the world needs ditch diggers, those who are poor should eternally be poor and have no chance of working their out of the gutter regardless of how hard they work, because it's the fault of poor people that they're poor. Oh, and that Aboriginals shouldn't have their status cards revoked and should go work in the ditch along with the other poor people, but only after they're sexually assaulted and humiliated, because they have to be held down someway.)

8. Rarely resorting to violence to settle political disputes.

9. Living in the shadow of an elephant or a donkey, depending on who's in power in Washington.

10. Beer.

[caesar]

Joe Clark may have been a lack lustre Prime Minister but I do believe he is an honest proud Canadian. Mulroney was an arrogant jerk who sold us out to the USA. Harper appears to be headed in that direction, too. Kim Campbell didn't have a chance. She got the job only because no one else was willing to face the coming defeat at the polls that was really Mulroney's.

I would like to see another strong charismic and strong nationalist leader like Trudeau.

[kimmy]

Nonetheless the argument is whether or not Clark destroyed the PC party.

Actually, the argument was with the claim that Joe Clark could have lead the Conservatives to victory. Joe Clark's results in the 2000 election cast serious doubt on that idea.

-kimmy

[caesar]

No they don't. Different times. People did want to give the Liberals a message but did not want a leader as right winged as Harper. We did not want a Canada that would just do whatever the USA says. We had to return the Liberals to protect our sovereignty. Joe Clark may be dull but he is Canadian. Harper is an American wannabe.

At this time; most Canadians want to keep our integrity and keep our nation free of the irrational policies of the present USA government. We do not appreciate the bullying and blackmail type of "diplomatic" relations coming from the present USA government.

Harper wants to keep the USA pleased with Canada at any cost; Most Canadians do not want to pay that price.

[I miss Reagan]

Joe Clark does not have a single conservative belief, not socially, not fiscally. He joined the PC party because that was the party of success in Alberta. Had the Liberals been the winners out there he'd have been just as happy to join them - or the NDP. As for Orchard, he has nothing in common with any conservative ideals either.

This is so true. Clark was more liberal than most liberals in Canada. Remember his supporters "liberals for Joe Clark". Many politicians in Canada run for the party that they can win with. Trudeau and Chretien were closet NDP's but knew the only way they could ever get any power was under the liberal flag.

[takeanumber]

The single unifying characteristic of the great prime ministers has been the ability to believe in one principle one day and then turn around the next, and with equal gusto, support the opposite principle.

(See: Trudeau, wage and price controls)

(See: Chretien, 1991/1995 comparison)

(See: Klein, any year)

I believe that you can be a Harperite-Dayite theocratic government supporter and still believe that you're a Canadian nationalist, because being a Con already requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics (or utter lack of intelligence) to justify simultaneous authoritarian and libertarian positions on everything.

So yes, having seen Cons perform the mental gymnastics on this board, I believe it. They really don't think that Mulroney sold us out, and don't see a problem with Harper getting into bed with Bush. If anything, they long for those days again.

[Slavik44]

The single unifying characteristic of the great prime ministers has been the ability to believe in one principle one day and then turn around the next, and with equal gusto, support the opposite principle.

(See: Trudeau, wage and price controls)

(See: Chretien, 1991/1995 comparison)

(See: Klein, any year)

I believe that you can be a Harperite-Dayite theocratic government supporter and still believe that you're a Canadian nationalist, because being a Con already requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics (or utter lack of intelligence) to justify simultaneous authoritarian and libertarian positions on everything.

So yes, having seen Cons perform the mental gymnastics on this board, I believe it. They really don't think that Mulroney sold us out, and don't see a problem with Harper getting into bed with Bush. If anything, they long for those days again.

Well there may be a few social conservatives that may not support their party leader being homosexual but would Bush and Harper get civil unioned in Boston or Married in Vancouver? Anyways I would consider myself a conservative, I am not a huge fan of everything Mulroney did although he certianly did do some great things for Canada, and i am not a huge fan of being america's lap dog. But I can still be a conservative, apparently your belief of a rugged code that binds all conservatives to one mind and one belief is simply not true.

[caesar]

Mulroney did nothing great; he is a national disgrace

[idealisttotheend]

But I can still be a conservative, apparently your belief of a rugged code that binds all conservatives to one mind and one belief is simply not true.

Wise words and elequently put. I ask it be applied equally to Clark and Orchard though, along with all the rest of the red Tories.

[Cartman]

Orchard had McKay make a deal NOT to merge with the Alliance; the only reason Orchard supposedly supported McKay. McKay then turned around and did just that. The real reason he never ran for the new party was b/c he knew that people would go after him. He did in his own party. He never came straight out and made this an election issue for his people to vote on.

Harper apparently had no problem with merging the parties in this manner. This is pure political opportunism at its worst. Seems to me that a party being forged out of broken promises and political opportunism from the start leads to flip flops on life and death issues like going to war in Iraq. Canadians felt more secure with Liberals stealing tax $$ then in supporting this party.

BTW..what are the principles of this new party? Do they support a truly free market (including health care), are they in favour of war in Iraq this week, are they pro-choice or not? Will posters on this forum wait until policies are actually created to support them or just fall in line with everything they say?

[Cartman]

Uhm, that story had nothing to say about competitiveness. It was the usual drug company nonsense about how importing legal pharmaceuticals over the internet was a "threat" to safety.

It is about using "safety issues" to invoke protectionism. That's an old ploy. Remember in the 80's when we used to run prolonged "safety inspections" on Japanese cars? Do you buy Bush's safety issue? I don't. At times, doctors will write prescriptions simply for the $$ involved and completely ignore "safety" concerns. Check it out below.

http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archives/0301...ne/diane35.html

[maplesyrup]

Another tragic situation is the farming out to Germany, or wherever, the construction of three ferries for BC. All these good paying jobs going out of the country. Where are Canadians going to find decent employment? With braindead policies like these, Canadians will be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. :angry:

[jay74]

Nationalism and protectionism seem to be a growing trend around the world. Why shouldn't we participate also.

[willy]

Where are Canadians going to find decent employment? With braindead policies like these, Canadians will be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.

What's wrong maplesyrup, can't find a job.

I never seem to have a problem finding work.

Need work, make work. It is individuals who build companies and compete. Individuals trade goods and services. Governments just get in the way.

This is the fundamental difference between the left and the right. I am responsible for myself and the left thinks big brother knows best.

[caesar]

I agree one hundred percent Maple. How does the government expect our industries to be able to compete and thrive if they buy off shore. This is just another right wing ploy to destroy unions so the big business owners make the dough and the rest of us work for minimum wage, They are wasting our hard earned tax dollars to do it. The BC Government begged us to vote for the olympics as it is one way we would have the federal government send money to BC. This ferry deal will have us paying the federal government 150 million in import duties.

[Guest eureka]

Isn't the discussion, so far as it is focused on the Conservatives rather than nationalism, just a little too concentrated on Social and Fiscal conservatism?

Should it not take a little look at the actual divide between conservatism and others. That is, Institutional conservatism. There has not been a conservative since Dief when that is considered. The Conservatives. Alliance or other have been populist and radical in wishing to transform the country, institutionally, whether the "reforms" would be beneficial or not. Meech Lake, Charlottetown, the Senate; you name it

It is in our institutions that we are most differentiated from the "elephant or donkey" to the South. Those initiatives or dreams of latter-day Conservatives would narrow the differences to the point of making us a stunted twin.

There is where Canadian Nationalism falls and falls with a most damaging injury. It is in our institutional life that we are "superior:" it is from that that conservatism flows. At this point in our evolution, it is the Liberal Party that is the most conservative element in Canada.

[maplesyrup]

Where are Canadians going to find decent employment? With braindead policies like these, Canadians will be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.

What's wrong maplesyrup, can't find a job.

I never seem to have a problem finding work.

Need work, make work. It is individuals who build companies and compete. Individuals trade goods and services. Governments just get in the way.

This is the fundamental difference between the left and the right. I am responsible for myself and the left thinks big brother knows best.

Willy's personal slurs are so typical of the right wing bullshit that flies around here at Mapleleafweb.

The reality is the wealthy makes their money on the backs of the poor. Whether it is within a country or internationally. The people who negotiated these trade agreements for Canada have sold out out the poor people in our society.

That's what I don't get about being rich and Christianity. Accumulating wealth is so opposed to what Jesus was all about. Well they say politics makes for strange bedfellows.

It was quite apparent from analysing the latest election results Canadians are waking up to the reality of these disasterous trade agreements and are shifting to the left politically. Maybe Canadians will finally come to their senses next election. A Bloc Quebecois - New Democratic partnership seems to be in the works, and Canadian voters are starting to like what they see in that kind of arrangement!

One area that is going to be very valuable for Canadians in the future is our fresh water. Maybe we should start considering to sell our water, what we don't require for ourselves, for the same price as the gasoline prices at the pump. In time water will be more valuable than oil, it is just a matter of time.

[Stoker]

The reality is the wealthy makes their money on the backs of the poor. Whether it is within a country or internationally. The people who negotiated these trade agreements for Canada have sold out out the poor people in our society.

How did they sell out the poor?

That's what I don't get about being rich and Christianity. Accumulating wealth is so opposed to what Jesus was all about. Well they say politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Are you saying that Jesus was a Communist now MS?

It was quite apparent from analysing the latest election results Canadians are waking up to the reality of these disasterous trade agreements and are shifting to the left politically. Maybe Canadians will finally come to their senses next election. A Bloc Quebecois - New Democratic partnership seems to be in the works, and Canadian voters are starting to like what they see in that kind of arrangement!

Where does this Bloc/NDP partnership seem to be in the works? In your noggin?

One area that is going to be very valuable for Canadians in the future is our fresh water. Maybe we should start considering to sell our water, what we don't require for ourselves, for the same price as the gasoline prices at the pump. In time water will be more valuable than oil, it is just a matter of time.

I thought that the evil Capitalists Pig-dog Oil Baron fat cat's product was melting the polar ice-caps and soon the world over would be drowning in water........

[August1991]

The reality is the wealthy makes their money on the backs of the poor.

That is typical evidence of zero-sum thinking. "The pie is only so big and if the rich get more, it's because the poor get less." In fact, the rich get rich by making the pie bigger - not by taking from the poor.

The US (and Canada) did not become rich countries by stealing from other countries. They became rich by creating wealth.

That's what I don't get about being rich and Christianity. Accumulating wealth is so opposed to what Jesus was all about. Well they say politics makes for strange bedfellows.

I tend to agree MS. IMV, Christ was a "socialist" (that is, someone confused about markets and mathematics).

The people who negotiated these trade agreements for Canada have sold out out the poor people in our society.

Do you mean NAFTA or free trade in general? Do you mean that trade is bad? Mulroney wisely lowered government barriers to what people do naturally - talk and deal with one another.

Willy's personal slurs are so typical of the right wing bullshit that flies around here at Mapleleafweb.

Give it a rest, MS.

------

How does the government expect our industries to be able to compete and thrive if they buy off shore.

Do you make your own clothes, caesar? Or do you "outsource" this task by buying outside your own family? Why don't you keep this sewing job for your own family members? Would your family be richer if you did that?

[playfullfellow]

The reality is the wealthy makes their money on the backs of the poor. Whether it is within a country or internationally. The people who negotiated these trade agreements for Canada have sold out out the poor people in our society.

I don't know about this MS. There seems to be plenty of jobs around for people who want to work and it is just not flipping burgers at Rotten Ronnies. With most companies I have worked for both in agriculture and construction had the trickle down effect. The more money the company made, the more moeny we made. This was doen throught profit sharing bonuses and cost reduction bonuses. We did not need a union or government help to negotiate these terms.

In my company, we all get paid exactly the same amount with the exception of myself, I put the capitol on the line to buy materials so I get an extra 5% to cover the companies butt in case of non-payment of a job. If this money is still there at the end of the year, then it gets paid out to everyone equally as a bonus.

If a company does not make a profit, what's the incentive to put your money on the line? Industry has come a long way since the 1800's and we have plenty of employee protection rules out there. Anyways, if you feel a company treats it's employees unfairly, go somewhere else to work. Don't expect the government to wipe your nose everytime it gets runny.

We as a nation have to more proud of the fact that we are Canadian. This BS of looking at what is wrong with our country all the time does absolutely nothing to build a better country. We have to look at what makes Canada work and the expand on that. We also have to get over this bloody regional negativity all the time. Let's just face the facts that each province is unique and has it's own needs. Why don't we let each province do it's own infrastructure so they can look after the areas they feel needs looking after? Ottawa is sucking the life out of Canada and thrives on these regional splits. This is where they buy their votes. Canada is a very unique country because we are so large and have very distinct regional differences. How can we apply any blanket policies across the country? No matter what you try and do, you will piss someone off. Lets start saying that we are not from the same mold and start promoting Canada as a very diversified country with distinct areas that can be developed to meet demands of just about any industry in the world. Canada could very well be one of the richest countries in the world if we could ever get over this bloody internal fighting and squabbling and start building ourselves as unique and different.

Even though I disagree with you most of the time MS, you do bring up interesting points and as with any debate, I respect your opinions. I come from a country that was a socialist country, cradle to grave policy. It did not work there and will not work here. The government needs to get out of our hair and let us build Canada as a diversified country. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world not because of government interference but rather industrial skill. If this means out sourcing the building of 3 ferries, so be it. The BC ship building industry will have to sit back and look at why this happened and change things so this does not happen again.

[Big Blue Machine]

Sean Hannity said a while ago that "Canada is a left-wing socialist basket. What kind of friends are they?" I took that to the heart. We should be proud that our health care system is way better than the American system. and our education system is better. Even tough I'm Conservative, I took that remark to the heart.

[maplesyrup]

Canada is a social democratic society and it seems to be working reasonably well.

We have an abundance of resources, so as a result we have the ability to be competitive, without reducing things like minimum wage, or abandoning our health care system. There is lots of opportunity for those who aspire to be rich to do so - look at what is taking place in Vancouver, for example.

The one overriding problem is that some folks just get too greedy, and they need to be curtailed through a progressive taxation system, closing out all the tax loopholes, and a strict environmental control policy, etc.

These fish farms on the West coast are a good example of where our collective governments have seriously let us down. To jeopardize the West coast salmon, so a few greedy folks can get rich with this stupid idea, is just short-sighted. Governements that support this kind activity need to be turfed.

Canada needs to move forward in a few areas such as a guaranteed annual income, eliminating tuition fees for education, ensuring that we have a top notch universal health care system, and perhaps some kind of mandatory environmental/conservation training program for our youth. Canadians would be wise to adopt the elimination of poverty as our collective goal for the 21st century.

[August1991]

Canada is a social democratic society and it seems to be working reasonably well.

What planet do you live on MS?

We just had a federal election where a bunch of crooks got re-elected because they used American tactics to scare English-Canadians into believing that Canada was about to become the US.

French Canada did NOT vote for the crooks but English Canada did. (Result? The crooks got re-elected.)

Our PM is a thief. His staff knows it. His caucus knows it. His party knows it. This Liberal Canada is a fraud.

Wake up MS and smell the coffee. (For example, look at the election results in Quebec.)

IMV, the Liberal Party, and PM PM, in the name of personal ambition, is in the process of destroying Canada.