Native Extortion

Moonlight Graham · January 25, 2012

All kidding aside, when the government fails to honour its Constitutional agreements and people's Rights, then an uprising is exactly what needs to happen.

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

Edited January 25, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

charter.rights · January 25, 2012

Then I guess the times that I have seen it being successful was just a fluke.

How about point to any First Nation where you ~think~ third party management has been successful. Chances are it is a myth also upon closer examination.

charter.rights · January 25, 2012

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

However....when we combine native injustice with unresolved homelessness issues, increasing poverty, disproportionate wealth, increasing police state etc, then we have the makings of a revolution - that kind that incensed and angry mobs would burn the parliament buildings over. That can be justified as a civil remedy for failing government.

Bryan · January 25, 2012

However....when we combine native injustice with unresolved homelessness issues, increasing poverty, disproportionate wealth, increasing police state etc, then we have the makings of a revolution - that kind that incensed and angry mobs would burn the parliament buildings over. That can be justified as a civil remedy for failing government.

No it can't. Getting off your asses and running in and voting in elections are the only justified actions as a civil remedy for failing government. You get the governance you deserve.

charter.rights · January 25, 2012

No it can't. Getting off your asses and running in and voting in elections are the only justified actions as a civil remedy for failing government. You get the governance you deserve.

Civil disobedience is as important to a functioning democracy as elections. The means to real in errant politicians lies with "The People" through such action.

Topaz · January 25, 2012

Finally just maybe the FN can have a better future IF the PM keep his promise to the FN people and I have to say the PM did the right thing by staying longer and talking to the chiefs. Lets hope this is not another false promise that has been made to the FN. Everyone knows education is the root that grows power for any Canadian and I wonder when the FN children do go on with a education, will the non-native community hire these people or come up with an excuse not to? If we want them to take care of themselves then the non-native community has to do their part and hire them. Don't say business can't do that its against the law but its also against the law for not hire someone because of their age, and we all knows that goes on too.

msj · January 25, 2012

How about point to any First Nation where you ~think~ third party management has been successful. Chances are it is a myth also upon closer examination.

On Vancouver Island I know of one where it no doubt has led to a success.

In another case, the threat led to a change in leadership/management which led to success.

But I'm not going to discuss specific bands for confidentiality purposes.

Smallc · January 25, 2012

Oh god, don't say that. Confidentiality apparently isn't an excuse here.

And I will say this - things are different for reserves depending on whic treaty they are part of, and if they're part of one.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Smallc

msj · January 25, 2012

Oh god, don't say that. Confidentiality apparently isn't an excuse here.

And I will say this - things are different for reserves depending on whic treaty they are part of, and if they're part of one.

Fair comment.

In BC we are talking about few treaties so the rules are probably unique compared to Ontario.

As for confidentiality - that is the proof of there being consequences to third party management.

There is still shame in letting one's band get to this point that no one wants to name any names.

cybercoma · January 25, 2012

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

When people have nothing left to lose, it will be violent and justifiably so.

Smallc · January 25, 2012

.
As for confidentiality - that is the proof of there being consequences to third party management.

Oh, I know. When I cited confidentiality related to business relationships with first nations, I was accused of everything from lying to bigotry.

Jerry J. Fortin · January 25, 2012

When people have nothing left to lose, it will be violent and justifiably so.

So let me get this straight, if somebody thinks they have nothing to lose they can then commit acts of violence, with cause but no responsibility?

Violence never was, and never will be, an acceptable solution to anything within the confines of this nation under law. Violence should be the reason to incarcerate citizens in the name of the nation. In fact, violence in the commission of an illegal act, should result in permanent removal from society to a northern latitude for the duration of their natural life. There can be no true hope unless society as a whole embraces an enlightened attitude toward governance. While it is never right to take a life, a zero tolerance for violence must be adhered to. The only available tool for society to punish an individual is the law of the land. Society should seek to stripe the rights of convicted felons and transport them less their property into a modern version of exile.

For those who actually take up arms against the nation, or its representatives, such an act will invoke the sanctioned use of deadly force under the pretext of national security by any designated member of any municipality, provincial or federal level of government. In my view, justice is the primary responsibility of any and all level(s) of government.

guyser · January 25, 2012

So let me get this straight, if somebody thinks they have nothing to lose they can then commit acts of violence, with cause but no responsibility?

Thats isnt what he said at all. He said when nothing left to lose, then people will resort to anything.

Violence never was, and never will be, an acceptable solution to anything within the confines of this nation under law. Violence should be the reason to incarcerate citizens in the name of the nation. In fact, violence in the commission of an illegal act, should result in permanent removal from society to a northern latitude for the duration of their natural life. There can be no true hope unless society as a whole embraces an enlightened attitude toward governance. While it is never right to take a life, a zero tolerance for violence must be adhered to. The only available tool for society to punish an individual is the law of the land. Society should seek to stripe the rights of convicted felons and transport them less their property into a modern version of exile.

For those who actually take up arms against the nation, or its representatives, such an act will invoke the sanctioned use of deadly force under the pretext of national security by any designated member of any municipality, provincial or federal level of government. In my view, justice is the primary responsibility of any and all level(s) of government.

Permanent removal from society? Someone beats up your spouse and you come over and beat the person doing it.....see ya later , as in much later in the afterlife?

Strip of rights? Thankfully we are born with rights that cannot be stripped, save for freedom of movement.

Rocky Road · January 25, 2012

http://www.saganash.ca/saganash/2012/01/25/trust-in-reconciliation-over-assimilation/

This link is from Romeo Saganash's website.

"There were two visions for the Crown-First Nations relationship at the summit meeting yesterday in Ottawa: assimilation and reconciliation."

cybercoma · January 25, 2012

So let me get this straight, if somebody thinks they have nothing to lose they can then commit acts of violence, with cause but no responsibility?

Who said no responsibility? Obviously they will be breaking laws and will be arrested or worse.

fellowtraveller · January 25, 2012

With the exception of the recent case in Ontario, no one ever hears about a band who is in remediation.

Once again - how would you know when all you hear is what is in the media? Which is nothing.

Yes, it is a financial audit. Nevertheless, reports are filed with the government. They know what the money is being spent on - water infrastructure, sewer, health, etc... They can and do use that information.

Not very well, perhaps, but they do use it much more than people realize.

I already explained my personal involvement, but I will not detail business interests here.

Filing reports and acting are very far apart, or they are in DIAND. It is the natuire of bureaucrats and bureaucracies.

I must amend my statement about quality of mgmt. In reality, management of bands is wildly divergent, from atrocious to excellent. IMO the nontreaty bands overall are better run than First Nations on reserves, though there are many exception in both.

Army Guy · January 25, 2012

So you look at one portion of the federal budget alone and think it's comparable? The first nations have to cover everything with that money. Not just building new housing. They need to cover municipal, provincial, and federal expenditures... and not just housing.

Almost 8.5 bil is not enough , that is what you are impling. Do i think my example is complable yes i do, when we are talking about the spread of tax payers money...But your right thier budget is not just for housing, it covers everything, But is it not hard to convince Canadian taxpayers when there is a gross mismangement in that 8.5 bil...that there are chiefs making more than the PM , when one chief in NS is making well over a Million in salery and benifits TAX free...for looking after less than 400 people ...that over 80% of that funding is spent by these chiefs....on what is what we would like to know....Perhaps it is time that ALL special interest groups stop getting different treatment, draw one line in the sand and everybody is the same...

Just a note that 8.5 does not include any grants, land claim settlements, or special projects....some how we forgot about that cash

Edited January 25, 2012 by Army Guy

charter.rights · January 25, 2012

On Vancouver Island I know of one where it no doubt has led to a success.

In another case, the threat led to a change in leadership/management which led to success.

But I'm not going to discuss specific bands for confidentiality purposes.

So you don't really have any, right?

There is nothing successful that comes out of third party management. That is a fact.

msj · January 25, 2012

I already explained my personal involvement, but I will not detail business interests here.

Filing reports and acting are very far apart, or they are in DIAND. It is the natuire of bureaucrats and bureaucracies.

I must amend my statement about quality of mgmt. In reality, management of bands is wildly divergent, from atrocious to excellent. IMO the nontreaty bands overall are better run than First Nations on reserves, though there are many exception in both.

Yes, I think these are, generally, fair comments.

msj · January 25, 2012

So you don't really have any, right?

There is nothing successful that comes out of third party management. That is a fact.

It is not a fact - it is your opinion based on your own limited experiences.

My opinion, based on my own limited experiences, is that I have seen a band come out of third party management and become successful.

I know because I have audited them during third party management and subsequent to third party management.

Choose to disbelieve my experience all you want.

Scotty · January 25, 2012

That's a pretty racist thing to say. You think because a person is Aboriginal they're unemployed. Nice.

What I'm saying is that most municipal governments are supported by local ratepayers. Even if you don't own land in a city you still pay municipal taxes on your rented home or apartment, and you actually pay at a higher rate than homeowners. It doesn't seem to me that in all the discussions about local government and it's federal funding there's been any mention of any funding by the community itself.

Scotty · January 25, 2012

When people have nothing left to lose, it will be violent and justifiably so.

Nothing left to lose? Are you under the impression the poor natives are shuddering under the jackboot of brutal dictatorship?

Let them go to Brazil or Nigeria and watch the crowds of people living in tin shacks picking through garbage in desperate search of food and tell me they've got nothing to lose.

cybercoma · January 25, 2012

Just like we did with the Acadians or Black Loyalists, eh?

guyser · January 25, 2012

What I'm saying is that most municipal governments are supported by local ratepayers. Even if you don't own land in a city you still pay municipal taxes on your rented home or apartment, and you actually pay at a higher rate than homeowners. It doesn't seem to me that in all the discussions about local government and it's federal funding there's been any mention of any funding by the community itself.

Um....unsure what planet you live on but here on earth in Toronto , the rate for a homeowner vs the single family rented dwelling is exactly the same.

You pay the same as a condo dweller , rental house, homeowner living in the same taxation zone.

ETA, TO specific

Edited January 25, 2012 by guyser

g_bambino · January 25, 2012

Just like we did with the Acadians or Black Loyalists, eh?

Putting aside the fact Scotty said "let them go", not "push them off", what Acadian or Black Loyalist was sent away to live in a slum (in contemporary, not modern, terms) and pick through garbage? What Black Loyalist was ever forced out of the British colonies in the Canadas at all?

[ed.: sp.]

Edited January 25, 2012 by g_bambino