How councillors coalesced to defeat Mayor Rob Ford

[CPCFTW]

Close the pools and libraries and buy up some used xboxes and ps2's for the poor underprivileged children. Nothing keeps a kid out of the street better than a game console. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than libraries and pools which is about the last place I would expect to find a troubled youth.

Edited January 19, 2012 by CPCFTW

[mentalfloss]

Close the pools and libraries and buy up some used xboxes and ps2's for the poor underprivileged children. Nothing keeps a kid out of the street better than a game console.

I can get behind that.

[Boges]

Well since the OP was just a re-post of a Star column I thought I'd counter with this, equally as partisan, article.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/18/budget-battle-not-a-loss-for-ford

Even the facts didn’t sway them — facts like the 10 school pools they saved are not only under utilized but cost $12/swim compared to $2/swim at city pools.

Or the fact that the ice rinks they fought to keep open sit empty 97% of the time and they’ve spent $260,000 on keeping the lights on and CUPE staff employed.

Or that the three day care centres they rescued – for a whopping $1.6-million – have a grand total of 44 kids in them. That’s $36,000 this year per kid. Very fiscally responsible. Or that the lion’s share of the $2.8-million in community service grants they so proudly reinstated go to groups in former deputy mayor Joe Pantalone’s (now Mike Layton) and former TTC chairman Adam Giambrone’s (now Ana Bailao) wards.

These were hardly service cuts.

Either they chose not to do their homework or they chose not to listen.

They have to look in the mirror and face their constituents.

But stunning loss? Pul-lease.

Let’s be real.

If these numbers are to be believed, the way this money is to be spent isn't exactly good stewardship of taxpayer money.

And to imply that if there wasn't an arena or a pool available for free for poor youths, they'd be criminals, is rather offensive. Don't their taxpayer-funded schools have extra-curricular activities? Aren't there already public parks for kids to play in. Are community centres all across the city bursting at the seams from over-use?

Also is there any evidence that these specific pools and arenas were keeping kids out of gangs?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

If these numbers are to be believed, the way this money is to be spent isn't exactly good stewardship of taxpayer money.

I'll be frank: I don't believe a word Sue-Anne Levy writes.

I'd like to know where this rationale was beforehand.

[Boges]

I'll be frank: I don't believe a word Sue-Anne Levy writes.

I'd like to know where this rationale was beforehand.

I'm sure the same could be said, by many, about someone like Royson James.

[jacee]

Close the pools and libraries and buy up some used xboxes and ps2's for the poor underprivileged children. Nothing keeps a kid out of the street better than a game console. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than libraries and pools which is about the last place I would expect to find a troubled youth.

Let us knoow when you want to participate in a meaningful discussion eh.

[Boges]

Let us knoow when you want to participate in a meaningful discussion eh.

Well when you think about it. Kids access to the internet and gaming have greatly reduced their love for physical activity. I played MW3 last night and I could hear several high-pitched voices of kids.

I'm guessing the kids that go to Libraries these days aren't going there to read Moby Dick but to go online.

[Black Dog]

I'm sure the same could be said, by many, about someone like Royson James.

Huh? What James facts specifically are you taking issue with?

I'm questioning Levy's numbers and wondering what her source is for them. Because, as far as I know, the notion that these services were underutilized drains on the taxpayer was never part of the cost-cutting rationale put forward beforehand. This is an administration that has shown itself time and again willing to play fast and loose with numbers, either misrepresenting figures or outright lying about them: I don't see why I should take their court stenographer's figures at face value as a result.

[Boges]

Huh? What James facts specifically are you taking issue with?

What evidence do you have that Sue Anne Levy has ever reported incorrect facts?

You just don't like the numbers she's reporting.

[Black Dog]

What evidence do you have that Sue Anne Levy has ever reported incorrect facts?

You just don't like the numbers she's reporting.

I'm asking what her source is. She doesn't cite one and, as I said twice before, this is an entirely new narrative we're seeing here.

[Boges]

I'm asking what her source is. She doesn't cite one and, as I said twice before, this is an entirely new narrative we're seeing here.

You could always tweet or e-mail her and ask her what her sources are. I'm not cuz if she was lying I'm sure people who know the figures would call her on her fabrications.

But anyway if labeling these "services" as under utilized is a new narrative, what was the old one? I know that's why they were making the TTC cuts.

[jacee]

Well when you think about it. Kids access to the internet and gaming have greatly reduced their love for physical activity. I played MW3 last night and I could hear several high-pitched voices of kids.

I'm guessing the kids that go to Libraries these days aren't going there to read Moby Dick but to go online.

Because they don't have computers at home. They may play games but also need it for school research too.

Think about a kid who has no computer at home in today's world. Libraries, pools, etc are needed for families that can't afford the 'normal' childhood experiences, to help keep them from falling behind due to poverty, to equalize their opportunity.

Over 40% of female lone parent families live in poverty. That's a LOT of kids without opportunities that we take for granted.

[Boges]

Because they don't have computers at home. They may play games but also need it for school research too.

Think about a kid who has no computer at home in today's world. Libraries, pools, etc are needed for families that can't afford the 'normal' childhood experiences, to help keep them from falling behind due to poverty, to equalize their opportunity.

Over 40% of female lone parent families live in poverty. That's a LOT of kids without opportunities that we take for granted.

Swimming at a public school is s civil right now? No school I ever went to had a pool. The local community centre had a pool. The column would indicate using Community Centre pools are a lot more cost effective.

Don't public schools have libraries with internet? And they aren't saying all libraries will be closed or have their hours reduced. Why can some efficiencies be made?

http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/hours-locations/

I checked the hours in some of the Libraries in poor areas of Toronto and some are open until 8:30pm. So lets say they cut the hours to 7pm, would that really ruin people's lives?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Boges

[jacee]

Swimming at a public school is s civil right now? No school I ever went to had a pool. The local community centre had a pool. The column would indicate using Community Centre pools are a lot more cost effective.

Don't public schools have libraries with internet? And they aren't saying all libraries will be closed or have their hours reduced. Why can some efficiencies be made?

http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/hours-locations/

I checked the hours in some of the Libraries in poor areas of Toronto and some are open until 8:30pm. So lets say they cut the hours to 7pm, would that really ruin people's lives?

Why pick on kids services? They are the single most essential services in our society!

Why not pick on eg snow removal or garbage pickup or grass cutting ... ? We had plowing when I was a kid, but they didn't go to the trouble and expense of actually removing the snow and trucking it to a different location as they do now, esp in Toronto where the snow doesn't stay all winter. We had lots of fun in the snowbanks too!

Healthy children are essential.

Men's toys are not.

We don't have sidewalk clearing, we have to do our own (or get fined), though afluent suburban communities insist it is their right. Infrastructure for sprawling affluent suburbs is expensive and not totally covered by their taxes. They should pay the ACTUAL cost of their cadillac services instead of picking on poor kids and families.

There are plenty of places to cut costs without picking on families struggling in poverty. It's pathetic that the goto for cutting costs is the most vulnerable in our society, when the affluent have so much more to spare. Absolutely pathetic ... and stooooopid!

Edited January 19, 2012 by jacee

[The_Squid]

The pool in my community is very well utilized and by a lot of what people might call poor or "disadvantaged".

It's a huge deal that these kids are doing physical activity, staying out of trouble, etc., etc. A very small price to pay...

Just look at righttoplay.com to see how leisure and sports activities can change lives...

[The_Squid]

So lets say they cut the hours to 7pm, would that really ruin people's lives?

No, but the savings is probably a pittance and is outweighed by the good service of being open late.

[Boges]

Why pick on kids services? They are the single most essential services in our society!

Why not pick on eg snow removal or garbage pickup or grass cutting ... ? We had plowing when I was a kid, but they didn't go to the trouble and expense of actually removing the snow and trucking it to a different location as they do now, esp in Toronto where the snow doesn't stay all winter. We had lots of fun in the snowbanks too!

Healthy children are essential.

Men's toys are not.

So Snow Removal isn't essential but certain pools (not all but underused ones) are sacrosanct. We haven't had a lot of snow this winter, but last winter we had a ton.

BTW proper landscaping of parks (or cutting grass as you put it) allows kids and adults a like to get outside and enjoy nice greenspace for free.

Also do you think perhaps there are other more pressing factors that contribute to the lack of healthy children then access to pools?

Edited January 19, 2012 by Boges

[jacee]

So Snow Removal isn't essential but certain pools (not all but underused ones) are sacrosanct. We haven't had a lot of snow this winter, but last winter we had a ton.

BTW proper landscaping of parks (or cutting grass as you put it) allows kids and adults a like to get outside and enjoy nice greenspace for free.

Also do you think perhaps there are other more pressing factors that contribute to the lack of healthy children then access to pools?

Yes, breakfast programs, libraries and community centres are essential too.

If you are talking about the overriding problem of poverty, it's a hard nut to crack, but these essential services can go a loooooong way toward keeping kids engaged, allowing them to participate fully in modern society, not fall behind and become alienated from the mainstream. "It takes a whole village to raise a child.", you know. And we are directly affecting the quality and character of tomorrow's adults.

And WHY are poor kids the first targets?

Why not men's toys?

Why not cut back on some snow removal, landscaping, garbage pickup, etc instead?

Is it because men think that machine play is more important than kids' play?

It isn't.

If we maintained, inspected, diagnosed and repaired kids as carefully as we do machines, we'd be a much more successful society.

Edited January 19, 2012 by jacee

[Boges]

Why not men's toys?

Why not cut back on some snow removal, landscaping, garbage pickup, etc instead?

Is it because men think that machine play is more important than kids' play?

How are these services "men's toys"?

[jacee]

How are these services "men's toys"?

Any service that has a macho machine attached to it is considered 'important', while kids' services are considered 'frills'.

Why should clearing snow from sidewalks of rich people in affluent sprawling suburbs be retained while necessary services for kids are attacked?

Edited January 19, 2012 by jacee

[Boges]

Any service that has a macho machine attached to it is considered 'important', while kids' services aren't.

That's one of the more odd things I've ever read. Those machine's provide public safety.

You need "men's toys" to build daycares, schools and pools. You need "men's toys" to farm food you feed to children.

The TTC uses "men's toys" so I guess, in your world, that's a perfectly fine thing to cut then.

[guyser]

Why should clearing snow from sidewalks of rich people in affluent sprawling suburbs be retained while necessary services for kids are attacked?

It isnt only the rich in affluent suburbs who get that service.

I get it and I do not live rich nor affluently. Dont get me wrong, I like the sidewalk service, but appreciate the 'no winnows allowed" thingy I get too !

Winnows aree the piles left at end of driveway, the snowplow has anextra blade that comes down and prevents the snow from piling there.

If it were to disappear, meh....would suck to shovel it all, but I wouldnt worry about it.

[cybercoma]

There's no sidewalk service in Windsor. Granted there isn't as much snow, but homeowners are fined if they don't clear their own sidewalks within 24 hours of snowfall. That used to be the case anyway. How about private roads? New Brunswick recently cut back its snow removal service from private roads with 3 or less homes on it. You want to live on a private road, clear it yourself or contact the road owner to have it cleared.

[Boges]

It isnt only the rich in affluent suburbs who get that service.

I get it and I do not live rich nor affluently. Dont get me wrong, I like the sidewalk service, but appreciate the 'no winnows allowed" thingy I get too !

Winnows aree the piles left at end of driveway, the snowplow has anextra blade that comes down and prevents the snow from piling there.

If it were to disappear, meh....would suck to shovel it all, but I wouldnt worry about it.

I'm sure people in poor communities want snow removed on their sidewalks too.

Ultimately it's an issue of public safety to remove snow and salt during snowfalls.

[guyser]

I'm sure people in poor communities want snow removed on their sidewalks too.

Ultimately it's an issue of public safety to remove snow and salt during snowfalls.

Probably , but the truth is there exists a by-law to remove snow from sidewalks in TO.

Any able bodied person living in a residence, whether rich or poor, can get it done. The only ones who cannot are the elderly or infirmed.

it is a waste of money and should be stopped.

Poor people reside predominantly in apartments, and it falls to the super to get the job done.