Lets look at the oilsands in a different way.

[mentalfloss]

Is the oil sands not a major oil spill? Caused by mother earth? And by processing the sands is the same as cleaning up a old gas station?

:lol:

[PIK]

:lol:

What is so funny, do you think man put it there?

[mentalfloss]

What is so funny, do you think man put it there?

Well first off, it's not a spill if it's contained.

[fellowtraveller]

Don't forget the most left-wing government in Canadian history -- the Saskatchewan CCF under Tommy Douglas. From 1944 to 1964 those lunatics nearly ruined the province with 20 balanced budgets, sustainable resource development, and by intoducing a provincial health plan that was the precursor to universal health care. Crazy bastards.

yep, right around the late 60s is when everybody started leaving SK, trickling out one family at a time like Dustbowl refugees from the 30s.

Editorial cartoons in SK in the 80s would ask the not rhetorical question " will the last person leaving please turn out the lights?".

[PIK]

Well first off, it's not a spill if it's contained.

Well lets see it is leaking into 3 rivers, I understand. Now is that contained?

[Wild Bill]

Don't forget the most left-wing government in Canadian history -- the Saskatchewan CCF under Tommy Douglas. From 1944 to 1964 those lunatics nearly ruined the province with 20 balanced budgets, sustainable resource development, and by intoducing a provincial health plan that was the precursor to universal health care. Crazy bastards.

Is the premise that the CCF was leftwing entirely sound by today's standards? I don't pretend to be a scholar of Canadian history but I had understood that when the CCF morphed into the NDP there was much bitterness and division between the western folks and the new members, since the party was no longer as much for the ordinary farmer or working man and instead became an Eastern Canada union worker party.

Also, should we not consider the differences in character between a citizen during Douglas' time and one from today? People back then seemed to have more sense of civic responsibility, loyalty and duty. Socialist or not, this would have to colour their approach to politics and government.

Surely we can't equate a hardworking prairie farmer with an Ontario welfare and gay rights activist! The demographics of a CCF member and one from today's NDP seem very different to me.

[prairiechickin]

Is the premise that the CCF was leftwing entirely sound by today's standards? I don't pretend to be a scholar of Canadian history but I had understood that when the CCF morphed into the NDP there was much bitterness and division between the western folks and the new members, since the party was no longer as much for the ordinary farmer or working man and instead became an Eastern Canada union worker party.

Also, should we not consider the differences in character between a citizen during Douglas' time and one from today? People back then seemed to have more sense of civic responsibility, loyalty and duty. Socialist or not, this would have to colour their approach to politics and government.

Surely we can't equate a hardworking prairie farmer with an Ontario welfare and gay rights activist! The demographics of a CCF member and one from today's NDP seem very different to me.

When the CCF came to power in 1944 they weree the first socilaist government in North America and they would have been considered left-wing radicals even by today's standards. In their first term in office they implemented public automobile insurance, took the first steps to create a publicly-owned electric power monopoly (Ontario already had one), and tried their hand at creating state owned manufacturing enterprises to diversify the economy. Some things worked (public insurance and the Saskatchewan Power Corporation are still flourishing), while some didn't (all the manufacturing), and this tempered the CCF for its remaining four terms in office. They got out of manufacturing, but still promoted industrial develoment via free enterprise -- the steel mill they helped build is still a going concern in Regina. They experimented quite successfully with public resource development in sodium sulfate, forestry and the fisheries, but lacked the capital and experise to devlelop oil and potash. These were left to the private sector. So while they had dreams of a socialist utopia, these were tempered by capitalist reality, and the CCF pragmatically steered a middle course between the two. They didn't stay in power for 20 years because people wanted radical change, they stayed there because they were first and foremost good managers, and with Tommy at the helm, honest to a fault.

But you're right, the CCF morphed into something different when Douglas left to go national in 1962 and created the NDP. I've wondered myself where the left lost its way, since it used to enjoy such broad appeal among farmers and city folk alike. Maybe it was the victim of its own success -- once it had ameliorated the worst excesses of capitalism, there was nothing left to do and it became the enclave of utopian dreamers again. Maybe this Occupy Movement is the resurgence of that spirit, although I have a hard time picturing Tommy Douglas smoking weed in a tent in a park. He was too much of a get-it-done pragmatist to simply waste his time howling at the moon.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I agree! The CCF and the Socreds were very interesting groups. Lots of stuff got done, the proof is in the pudding. Public Heath Care, education, EI, and dozens of other programs were created to form a floor from which nobody would fall below. They were ahead of the curve, but have now lost there way.

[fellowtraveller]

I agree! The CCF and the Socreds were very interesting groups. Lots of stuff got done, the proof is in the pudding. Public Heath Care, education, EI, and dozens of other programs were created to form a floor from which nobody would fall below. They were ahead of the curve, but have now lost there way.

In Alberta, the Socreds just morphed into the PCs.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

In Alberta, the Socreds just morphed into the PCs.

Sorta yes and sorta no. Social Credit is as dead as a door nail. Social Credit should never have been a political party, it was a political philosophy when created. If you like Keynes you will not like C.H.Douglas. With a little Alberta twist, they ran the province for decades.

[PIK]

Is that the same tommy douglas that wanted to sterilize mentally and physically disabled canadians and ship them to camps???? that's just one of tommy douglas's many chilling ideas that his fans are trying to erase from history

[prairiechickin]

Is that the same tommy douglas that wanted to sterilize mentally and physically disabled canadians and ship them to camps???? that's just one of tommy douglas's many chilling ideas that his fans are trying to erase from history

Ya, that's the same guy. Go read a couple of books on the eugenics movement in Canada, and Douglas' MA theis, then come back and we'll chat.

[noahbody]

The question is whether this sudden influx of CO2 will have any significant effects on the earth's environment. I think that it's fair to say that we simply don't know enough about the question now to have a definitive answer.

"Sudden" has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect. As far as the amount of CO2 emitted, Canada contributes an insignificant amount on a global scale. If we reduce our emissions to zero, it wouldn't affect a thing, except make some people feel all warm and fuzzy.

Canada can, however, have a great impact in reducing global CO2 levels because of the oil sands, if a pipeline is built to China. If China uses our demonized oil instead of burning coal, that will have a huge impact on CO2 levels. The evil villain becomes the hero.

[fellowtraveller]

"Sudden" has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect. As far as the amount of CO2 emitted, Canada contributes an insignificant amount on a global scale. If we reduce our emissions to zero, it wouldn't affect a thing, except make some people feel all warm and fuzzy.

Canada can, however, have a great impact in reducing global CO2 levels because of the oil sands, if a pipeline is built to China. If China uses our demonized oil instead of burning coal, that will have a huge impact on CO2 levels. The evil villain becomes the hero.

Hey, China needs coal and Alberta has a lot of it. Maybe when they build the Kitimat pipeline they could put ina very long conveyor belt too.

[Evening Star]

Is that the same tommy douglas that wanted to sterilize mentally and physically disabled canadians and ship them to camps???? that's just one of tommy douglas's many chilling ideas that his fans are trying to erase from history

Who's trying to erase it? You can download that thesis for free. Worth noting that it was a mainstream idea at the time and that Douglas never implemented any of it in office, unlike the provincial governments of AB and BC. I don't know that it's fair to judge him too severely based on something he wrote for school vs what he actually did in office.

[waldo]

Canada can, however, have a great impact in reducing global CO2 levels because of the oil sands, if a pipeline is built to China. If China uses our demonized oil instead of burning coal, that will have a huge impact on CO2 levels. The evil villain becomes the hero.

huh? Since the overwhelming percentage of China coal consumption associates to electricity generation, are you advocating for a China shift to oil generating electricity? Cause, ahh... there just isn't a whole lot of that (still) being done out there. In any case, feel free to bring up your figures for effective CO2 equivalents... in terms of just how you propose China uses, as you say, "our demonized oil instead of burning coal, that will have a huge impact on CO2 levels".

of course, in getting to your conventional oil starting point, I expect your China advocate position will also recognize the distinction between bitumen sourced tarsands and conventional oil, vis-a-vis Greenhouse Gas CO2 emission equivalents. In that regard: from the MLW thread, "UK secretly helping Canada (Harper) with oil sands"... you know, the thread that speaks to the covert actions by Harper Conservatives to attempt to influence the EU initiative to update its 1998 Fuel Quality Directive standards... the Harper Conservative covert actions that only came to light through 'Freedom of Information' pursuits:

life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels:

... the proposed new EU standards encompass greenhouse gas (GHG) default value designations for a grouping of described unconventional sources such as:

- oil shale with a proposed GHG value of 131.3 grams CO2 equivalent per megajoule (CO2eq/MJ)

- coal-to-liquid with a proposed GHG value of 172 CO2eq/MJ

-

bitumen derived (tarsands) with a proposed GHG value of 107 CO2eq/MJ

as compared to crude oil with a GHG value of 87.5g CO2eq/MJ

[fellowtraveller]

Who's trying to erase it? You can download that thesis for free. Worth noting that it was a mainstream idea at the time and that Douglas never implemented any of it in office, unlike the provincial governments of AB and BC. I don't know that it's fair to judge him too severely based on something he wrote for school vs what he actually did in office.

I don't judge Tommy too harshly for being a fire and brimstone, outspoken evangelical Christian either.

His belief and often preached faith that God created everything in seven days a few thousand years ago is just as valid now as it was then.

[waldo]

I don't judge Tommy too harshly for being a fire and brimstone, outspoken evangelical Christian either. His belief and often preached faith that God created everything in seven days a few thousand years ago is just as valid now as it was then.

both churches Stephen Harper belongs to (Calgary & Vanier), are churches of the evangelical Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA)... care to offer comment, or as you say, 'judgement', in regards to the beliefs/doctrine of the C&MA as relates to 'seven (6?) day' creation?.

[Smallc]

Many people who go to church (I can't really figure out why they go) don't take all of it so literally. Other than on drugs, Harper doesn't seem all that social conservative.

[prairiechickin]

I don't judge Tommy too harshly for being a fire and brimstone, outspoken evangelical Christian either.

His belief and often preached faith that God created everything in seven days a few thousand years ago is just as valid now as it was then.

I have no idea where you got this from, he was a Baptist, and while he was renowned for his oratory, I've never heard anyone describe him as 'fire and brimstone'. He wasn't much on the afterlife, he was a Fabian socialist who was far more concerned with bettering conditions in the here and now.

[fellowtraveller]

I have no idea where you got this from, he was a Baptist, and while he was renowned for his oratory, I've never heard anyone describe him as 'fire and brimstone'. He wasn't much on the afterlife, he was a Fabian socialist who was far more concerned with bettering conditions in the here and now.

He was a travelling preacher, do you think he delivered his fundamentalist Christian message as a mime act? Your comment on 'not much on the afterlife' is a giggle, one of the tenets of Douglas-style fundamentalism is the fear of Hell and the certainty of your presence there unless you toe the line. Tell me, why do NDP fundamentalists always attempt to blow off the history of their icon and replace it with modern interpretations that are at best fables?. I don't deny that Douglas was an important character in the development of social structures, why do you deny his actual biography?

care to offer comment, or as you say, 'judgement', in regards to the beliefs/doctrine of the C&MA as relates to 'seven (6?) day' creation?.

Sure, They are patently ridiculous. Duh.

Many people who go to church (I can't really figure out why they go) don't take all of it so literally

I reckon many go because it gives them a sense of community, of belonging, a link that can share without fear with others.. Tribalism, the pack mentality are basic instincts. Churches also provide a convenient set of anwers for some very difficult questions. You can stop worrying and wondering about the point of it all if you accept the basic premises 'God created the heavens and the Earth' or 'Jesus is Lord' or original sin and so on. There are many other constructs that do a similar thing, but churches have long recognized this need for many and have tailored themselves to meet it.

[eyeball]

I'm neither a fundie nor a dipper. I think Jesus was simply one of the greatest natural born humanists the world has ever seen. That said Douglas seems a lot more Jesus-like than Harper.

I think it's pretty obvious that Jesus would be near the top of the list of enemies of the state and adversaries in Harperland. I mean, it's widely accepted that right-wing conservatives would nail Jesus to a cross in a NY minute should these be the times he talked about how to make the world a better place. There's no doubt who's temple he'd be tipping tables over in.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm neither a fundie nor a dipper. I think Jesus was simply one of the greatest natural born humanists the world has ever seen. That said Douglas seems a lot more Jesus-like than Harper.

I think it's pretty obvious that Jesus would be near the top of the list of enemies of the state and adversaries in Harperland. I mean, it's widely accepted that right-wing conservatives would nail Jesus to a cross in a NY minute should these be the times he talked about how to make the world a better place. There's no doubt who's temple he'd be tipping tables over in.

Yes, that is really obvious to any thinking person.

I guess that before the 'right-wing conservatives' nailed up Jesus on Fox News primetime, they would have to recant their belief in him and their literal interpretation of the Gospels. Makes for a busy week!

Do you think that since Harpers Secret Agenda does not seem to be materializing, that his Even More Really Secret Agenda will include reviving capital punishment and that crucifiction will be the method? His first candidates for the nails-on-a cross will surely be gay abortion seeking visible minorities culled from the re-education camps on Baffin Island.

[eyeball]

Yes, that is really obvious to any thinking person.

I'm glad you agree.

What secret agenda, Harper's always been pretty open about it.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm glad you agree.

What secret agenda, Harper's always been pretty open about it.

The one where he rejects Jesus, puts him at the top of an Enemy of Ze State list, and then crucifies The Bearded One at a One World Government buntoss in New York.. It might be more obvious to you, my fillings are now all replaced, without any silver amalgam in my head I don't get the messages anymore.