eyeball Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 From your Tyee link: If the environmentalists are going to use delaying tactics to stop the construction of a pipeline, imagine what they would do to stop the construction of a refinery. It's instructive that Shell recently closed a refinery in east-end Montreal. I'm all for building a refinery. I think it's bloody crazy to ship such a increasingly scarce resource unprocessed without adding as much value to it as we can. I also think that by building refineries according to our far higher standards we will be able to ensure the oil is used in the most responsible manner. Expanding our oil output and shipping it abroad as fast as we can while also racing as fast as we can to the bottom is just about the stupidest thing we've ever done as a nation, bar none. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
fellowtraveller Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Your saying it's impossible to be an expert on a topic with out being tied to foreign interests? Also, last I checked this was an environmental review. As in not a business review. No, I am saying that world class experience in any field of endeavour is gained by education, training and long experience in your field. You don't become a pre-eminent scholar in global environmental issues sitting in your parents basement, it takes involvlement with global scholarship. Same for the oil business, or pipeline technology. You have to talk with foreigners, learn from foreigners, work with multinational corporations and travel the world observing best practices. That is how you become an expert. Making movies or singing songs doesn't get you there. James Cameron is not an exp[ert on anything except sucking dollars out of the pockets of people sitting in the dark eating popcorn. There is no need to value his opinion on the environment. You have not checked anything at all if you think that the NEB hearings are only about the environment. They have three objectives in their mandate, and the environmental issues are one of them. Please inform yourself. Quote The government should do something.
fellowtraveller Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 If the environmentalists are going to use delaying tactics to stop the construction of a pipeline, imagine what they would do to stop the construction of a refinery. It's instructive that Shell recently closed a refinery in east-end Montreal. I find it odd that I have not seen a single protest about the endless fleets of tankers that bring oil to Central Canada from Venezuela and the Middle East for many decades. Isn't it filthy too? Quote The government should do something.
fellowtraveller Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 Then it is settled...Pamela Anderson meets all the qualifications to be on the review panel. Just an aside, but have you ever seen Anderson in an unscripted situation? The reality is that she is as smart as they come, totally self aware and very funny to boot. Note that she has made millions off minimal talent other than a great relationship with the silicone manufacturers. She is very far from being dumb. Quote The government should do something.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 ...She is very far from being dumb. I know.....she became an American. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I find it odd that I have not seen a single protest about the endless fleets of tankers that bring oil to Central Canada from Venezuela and the Middle East for many decades. Isn't it filthy too? What is it with this odd expectation that an endless state of protesting everything should be maintained before anything is ever taken seriously? That said, I don't think I can recall a protest free period for many decades now. I guess there's only so much filth in the world that can be pointed out at one time and the ability to do so has more to do with the attention span of people with...odd expectations. Edited January 11, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
fellowtraveller Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 I know.....she became an American. She had no choice. Over 50% of her body is constructed with Dow Corning materials, a US corporation. Once you pass that 50% threshold........... Quote The government should do something.
fellowtraveller Posted January 11, 2012 Report Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) What is it with this odd expectation that an endless state of protesting everything should be maintained before anything is ever taken seriously? That said, I don't think I can recall a protest free period for many decades now. I guess there's only so much filth in the world that can be pointed out at one time and the ability to do so has more to do with the attention span of people with...odd expectations. Tell me, have you ever heard a peep from environmentalists about the massive threat that tankers pose to the St Lawrence River and everyhting that lives there? Anybody in Valdez, Prince Rupert or Vancouver picketing over the daily supertanker traffic on the BC coast? Anybody stepping up to protest the 71 supertankers that hauled Alberta oil out of Vancouver last year? Edited January 11, 2012 by fellowtraveller Quote The government should do something.
The_Squid Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Should foreigners (either directly or through funding) have the right to influence regulatory decisions in Canada? The Canadian government and corporations spent money lobbying the USA about the other pipeline. Seems the height of hypocrisy to oppose "foreign money" or "influence" when they did it themselves. TransCanada Corp. (TSX: TRP) has recruited heavyweights from the presidential campaigns of Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry to lobby for the proposed Keystone XL oil pipeline.Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110907/pipeline-lobbyists-transcanada-obama-110908/#ixzz1jCgz1Kf8 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 She had no choice. Over 50% of her body is constructed with Dow Corning materials, a US corporation. Once you pass that 50% threshold........... No, her accountant told her she would save millions in taxes. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 The Canadian government and corporations spent money lobbying the USA about the other pipeline. Seems the height of hypocrisy to oppose "foreign money" or "influence" when they did it themselves. Good point...there is an army of Canadian paid lobbyists in Washington D.C. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Tell me, have you ever heard a peep from environmentalists about the massive threat that tankers pose to the St Lawrence River and everyhting that lives there? Anybody in Valdez, Prince Rupert or Vancouver picketing over the daily supertanker traffic on the BC coast? Anybody stepping up to protest the 71 supertankers that hauled Alberta oil out of Vancouver last year? Sure I hear concerns voiced about local tanker traffic from time to time and I'm fairly confident environmentalists have their ear to the ground in their regions. Speaking of the Valdez oil spill Exxon was still fighting to avoid it's liability some 20 years after the fact and probably still is to this day. Tell me, have you ever heard of an oil spill where the people who spilled it don't resist their responsibility tooth and nail for as long as they can? The history of denial, avoidance, hubris and claims of near infallibility from outfits like Exxon not to mention the governments under their influence is probably the biggest reason I can think of for resisting even more oil from being shipped down our coast. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
AreBe Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 very informative information from a good woman writer: Vivian Krause. We should see what we can do about using affirmative action and the CRTC to help her become a more prominent Canadian figure. From the Financial Post The Girl Who Played with Tax Data: And uncovered the foreign funding of Canadian green groups Terence Corcoran Jan 9, 2012 Over the past year, Vancouver writer Vivian Krause http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/01/09/foreign-funding-of-canadian-green-groups/ has been documenting the role of activist U.S. charitable foundations — many with radical agendas aimed at Canada — in funding environmental groups in Canada. The foundations, from the Tides group to the Hewlett and Packard foundations and many others, have poured up to $300-million into Canadian groups over the past 10 years. Canadian industrial targets have included farmed salmon, tanker traffic, oil sands development and the forest industry — core industries in Canada’s economic development.Below is a list of Ms. Krause’s articles for FP Comment, articles that triggered a major move by Joe Oliver, Canada’s Minister of Natural Resources, to attempt to short-circuit the influence of foreign funding and speed up regulatory reviews of major energy projects such as the Northern Gateway pipeline from Alberta to British Columbia. Who’s funding Mayor Robertson? Tarred by science The missing sea lice Suzuki’s fish story U.S. environmentalists are meddling in B.C.’s election Packard’s push against B.C. salmon Demarketing Alberta U.S. foundations against the oil sands Money trail gets fishy U.S. funding of native groups (at bottom of page) see http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/01/09/foreign-funding-of-canadian-green-groups/ Quote
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 The Girl Who Played with Tax Data: And uncovered the foreign funding of Canadian green groups Terence Corcoran Jan 9, 2012 ...documenting the role of activist U.S. charitable foundations — many with radical agendas aimed at Canada — in funding environmental groups in Canada. So who's been documenting the role of activist U.S. corporations — many with some really damaging development plans aimed at Canadian ecosystems? The unpatriotic radicals we've been hearing about lately would be my guess. Probably in cahoots with those Islamo-fascists the same sorts of people who play with tax data warn us about. Maybe one day they'll be able to blow environmentalists up the way they blow up Iranian scientists. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jacee Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) So who's been documenting the role of activist U.S. corporations — many with some really damaging development plans aimed at Canadian ecosystems? The unpatriotic radicals we've been hearing about lately would be my guess. Probably in cahoots with those Islamo-fascists the same sorts of people who play with tax data warn us about. Maybe one day they'll be able to blow environmentalists up the way they blow up Iranian scientists. Well said.Harper's hissy fit about "foreigners" is pathetic, but shows his frustration that he couldn't find a behind-the-scenes way to control the hearings. (Note: It doesn't matter whose mouth it comes from, it's Harper's words.) Blowing up environmentalists is what he and the oil gang would like to be doing I'm sure, if they thought they could get away with it, like the CIA gets away with blowing up an Iranian scientist. But the evidence doesn't support Harper's claims of environmentalist foreigners hijacking' the review process: Hudema points out that "the overwhelming 'foreign' influence is from oil companies, not U.S. foundations or environmentalists." According to Environmental Defence, an Ontario-based environmental group, there are 10 foreign oil companies registered as nterveners, but not a single environmenta organization from outside the country on the ist. "In fact, most if not all are B.C.-based organizations, including many from northern B.C.," states the website. Environmental Defence points out that of the 4,522 people who have registered in the oral submission category, "a search of the registry indicates that 3,587 of these people, or 79 per cent of the total, are from British Columbia." BUT ... Some 'intervenors' have never heard of Gateway SO ... The question becomes ... did Harper/oil industry fraudulently put names of "foreign" environmentalists on the list to bolster their case and support Harper's hissy fit? I suspect so. Edited January 12, 2012 by jacee Quote
fellowtraveller Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Sure I hear concerns voiced about local tanker traffic from time to time and I'm fairly confident environmentalists have their ear to the ground in their regions. What is your condifence based upon? Hundred of millions of barrels of oil have been delivered to Central Canada for decades via tankers and pipelines , yet I have not seen a single environmental protest on this outrage. Tell me, have you ever heard of an oil spill where the people who spilled it don't resist their responsibility tooth and nail for as long as they can? Sure, there have been dozens of gas stations closed here and almost every one has had to have been cleaned up by the current owner of the property before they could sell it. Individuals, governments and corporations routinely try to avoid responsibility for their actions. Is there a point to your question? Quote The government should do something.
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 What is your condifence based upon? Hundred of millions of barrels of oil have been delivered to Central Canada for decades via tankers and pipelines , yet I have not seen a single environmental protest on this outrage. Well, I'm betting you have but that you just don't give a damn. I certainly don't have much confidence in your statements to the contrary. Sure, there have been dozens of gas stations closed here and almost every one has had to have been cleaned up by the current owner of the property before they could sell it. Individuals, governments and corporations routinely try to avoid responsibility for their actions. Is there a point to your question? Yes, the bigger the corporations and the friendlier the governments the longer their responsibility can be avoided. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Who should have standing in Environmental Review Panels? Northern Gateway Review Panel & Our Broken Review System The review system is not the problem it's the decision making process that's hooped. I mean let's face it the decision has been made and the review process is a facade. I've seen the reverse happen too, where instead of developing new industries, long established local industries are simply blown out of their local waters by a decision made in government and corporate offices located hundreds and thousands of miles away. Just about everyone and anyone had standing in the warm and fuzzy review processes that followed the implementation of a decision that was made in a separate process that people from the affected region had zero access to. Edited January 12, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
prairiechickin Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Just about everyone and anyone had standing in the warm and fuzzy review processes that followed the implementation of a decision that was made in a separate process that people from the affected region had zero access to. Much like the decision to implement the long-gun registry. How do you like it? Quote
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Much like the decision to implement the long-gun registry. How do you like it? I don't, I guess you weren't paying attention when I said that gun owners should be mostly responsible for designing the methods by which their guns are controlled. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
fellowtraveller Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 Well, I'm betting you have but that you just don't give a damnI'm betting you haven't, because it would strengthen your argument against Gateway if you could provide anything in support.The NEB rarely turns down pipeline applications for obvious reasons. The only difference in this aplication is the size of the project. The country is covered in pipelines, and oil tanker traffic on the East and West Coast is routine, long established and significant. Why do you expect a different process or different outcome here? Quote The government should do something.
eyeball Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 I'm betting you haven't, because it would strengthen your argument against Gateway if you could provide anything in support. The NEB rarely turns down pipeline applications for obvious reasons. The only difference in this aplication is the size of the project. The country is covered in pipelines, and oil tanker traffic on the East and West Coast is routine, long established and significant. Why do you expect a different process or different outcome here? The scope of the project and especially the greater navigational hazards found on the north coast but mostly the deeply adversarial nature of the government's approach to the process. It is patently clear that he decision to go ahead is as good as made. The review is just for show. I simply don't trust the governments and corporations that are involved farther than I can spit. I mean, how do you fault anyone for that in this day and age? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
fellowtraveller Posted January 12, 2012 Report Posted January 12, 2012 I simply don't trust the governments and corporations that are involved farther than I can spit. I mean, how do you fault anyone for that in this day and age?Bad news buckwheat, it isn't going to change. I don't fault you for it, but really if this causes you this much grief you do have choices. One would be to refuse all the government services you get now and will get in the future that are paid for by taxes or operated by our govts and in Canada a signifcant part of that comes from energy exports: welfare, education, defence, public security, pensions and all the rest. Or you could move to a country that has no corporations or nearly so. I think the world is down to North Korea or maybe Cuba though that one is pretty iffy. You'd also want to refuse to pay taxes at all while living here, if your feelings are that strong. Quote The government should do something.
Tilter Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Who should have standing in Environmental Review Panels? Yes--- I think our environmental practices should be dictated by a panel of pollution experts from Luxembourg or perhaps Fiji. Quote
eyeball Posted January 13, 2012 Report Posted January 13, 2012 Yes--- I think our environmental practices should be dictated by a panel of pollution experts from Luxembourg or perhaps Fiji. I'd rather our environmental practices be standardized by a panel of Earthlings who know what they're talking about. That wouldn't be the one's leading the economic race to the bottom by the way. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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