Tory Tax Giveaways

Battletoads · January 5, 2012

On January 1st, 2012 Electro-Motive Canada locked out workers for refusing to take a 55% pay cut, along with numerous other benefit reductions.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-mum-on-lockout-at-plant-harper-used-to-tout-corporate-tax-cuts/article2291661/

This after the Canadian tax payer sunk millions of dollars into the Company. Ironically, back in 2008, Stephen Harper used the London plant to tout the Tories inane tax cuts and giveaways as a job creators and protectors. In true Con style these 'no string attached' giveaways have failed, and worse still the tax payer is now out millions of dollars with only a few 'mc jobs' to show for it. Seems the cons have no problem wasting money on their corporate friends, while the funding of healthcare and other essential services is on the table.

PS: The real gem in this story comes from the Cons claim that they don't involve themselves in private labour disputes. :lol:

Edited January 5, 2012 by Battletoads

Evening Star · January 5, 2012

It's still not clear to me whether there were subsidies for Electro-Motive specifically or if the government simply announced tax breaks that apply to all companies and happened to use an EM plant for this purpose.

TimG · January 5, 2012

This after the Canadian tax payer sunk millions of dollars into the Company.

Where is your evidence for this claim? Tax reductions are not subsidies.

The real gem in this story comes from the Cons claim that they don't involve themselves in private labour disputes.

The government does not get involved in private labour disputes when the only people affected are the company and workers. When a labour dispute at a private company becomes a public nuisance it becomes a public dispute.

Rick · January 5, 2012

Where is your evidence for this claim? Tax reductions are not subsidies.

The government does not get involved in private labour disputes when the only people affected are the company and workers. When a labour dispute at a private company becomes a public nuisance it becomes a public dispute.

The mayor of London would disagree with you considering he too said it is costing businesses all around the area money in lost incomes from the plant being shut by the corporate greed of CAT.

Cameron · January 5, 2012

A $5-million federal tax break for buyers of the diesel locomotive-maker's wares and a wider $1-billion tax break on industrial capital investment.

You people like to pick and choose what you bitch about. This HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TAX BREAKS. CAT obviously doesn't want to

do business in Canada and this looks like a union busting move to move the plant south. If they DIDN'T give any tax breaks they would probably want to move anyways.

What this does (did) is encourage buyers to buy from this plant. So if they move it south, THEY WON'T GET THE TAX BREAKS (company and customers)!

They didn't give them any money, only guarantees to customers who bought locomotives and a broader tax break to companies across Canada.

Pull your collective heads out of your a**es.

Big Guy · January 5, 2012

The mayor of London would disagree with you considering he too said it is costing businesses all around the area money in lost incomes from the plant being shut by the corporate greed of CAT.

Something similar occurred in my area where US Steel wanted to purchase the old Stelco plant in Nanticoke Ontario just East of Simcoe where we reside. The purchase was evaluated and support from the federal government was based on the promise that US Steel would adhere to certain labor conditions. When the economy went south so did most of US Steel’s business. They started to shut down. The Canadian workers were left without the right for EI or welfare. A year later things got a little better but the federal government took US Steel to court for not adhering to the agreement. The suit bounced in courts and finally the feds made an out of court settlement without informing their co-litigants – the union.

Lots of bad feelings all around and lots of angry people. The local economy took a real hit as those previously highly paid workers were off without any income for about a year. It was Tony Clement who was in charge of the original deal. It should not be that much of a surprise.

The details can be easily located by Googling US Steel federal law suit settlement.

Rick · January 5, 2012

Something similar occurred in my area where US Steel wanted to purchase the old Stelco plant in Nanticoke Ontario just East of Simcoe where we reside. The purchase was evaluated and support from the federal government was based on the promise that US Steel would adhere to certain labor conditions. When the economy went south so did most of US Steel’s business. They started to shut down. The Canadian workers were left without the right for EI or welfare. A year later things got a little better but the federal government took US Steel to court for not adhering to the agreement. The suit bounced in courts and finally the feds made an out of court settlement without informing their co-litigants – the union.

Lots of bad feelings all around and lots of angry people. The local economy took a real hit as those previously highly paid workers were off without any income for about a year. It was Tony Clement who was in charge of the original deal. It should not be that much of a surprise.

The details can be easily located by Googling US Steel federal law suit settlement.

I'm well aware of it Big Guy and I've posted here previously on that.

Another case where we've been sold down the river by the American ass kissing Harper government.

Cameron · January 5, 2012

That's a point I'd like to pick at. There are no gurantees that a division is going to stay in Canada. If a company agrees, let's say for a bailout, to keep their plant in Canada, what is to REALLY stop them from packing it up a year or two later and dealing with the matter in court.

There are no guarantees that a company will stay in Canada. NONE. If you what to go down the protectionism path, then you are shooting yourself in the other foot. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

Cameron · January 5, 2012

I'd also like to point out the the BIG UNION ( :lol: ) always seems to be tashing the governemnt. I am part of the CAW, so I see the material.

Why in hell would a governemt lift a finger for any Union in Canada when they spit so much vennom towards the Governemnt. Then, out of the side of their mouth ask for the governement to help and intervene.

CPCFTW · January 5, 2012

Big surprise.. The union makes it so unprofitable for CAT to stay in Canada that they are willing to shut down a plant, forego tax breaks, and open a new plant in the states. Better blame the government for not forcing corporations to accept lower pre-tax profits!!! :lol:

Cameron · January 5, 2012

Big surprise.. The union makes it so unprofitable for CAT to stay in Canada that they are willing to shut down a plant, forego tax breaks, and open a new plant in the states. Better blame the government for not forcing corporations to accept lower pre-tax profits!!!

Why can't people see this! The government is giving customers money back to buy products, as well as give the company a tax break. It seems CAT has ulterior motives....

CPCFTW · January 5, 2012

Why can't people see this! The government is giving customers money back to buy products, as well as give the company a tax break. It seems CAT has ulterior motives....

My point was that even with those perks, CAT management obviously believes it would be more profitable to relocate. Either better perks are being offered in the states, or the cost of union labour is simply that much higher here than stateside. I can assure you that the primary motivation is profits.

punked · January 5, 2012

Why can't people see this! The government is giving customers money back to buy products, as well as give the company a tax break. It seems CAT has ulterior motives....

People can't see that because you live in a fantasy land.

Rick · January 5, 2012

London’s unemployment rate is currently one of the highest among major Canadian cities, something not lost on those who argue Electro-Motive workers should be happy they even have a job, regardless of what it pays. If workers are to be satisfied with simply having a job, why shouldn’t companies be satisfied with simply breaking even?

Electro-Motive’s parent company isn’t, but Electro-Motive’s employees are.

The company recently posted a record $1.14-billion dollar profit - not revenue, but profit - in its latest quarter. Despite this unprecedented success, Electro-Motive workers (perhaps in recognition of the economy?) are not demanding a 44% increase in wages. They’re not holding out for a 4% increase, or even a 0.4% hike. They’re willing to accept a wage freeze.

Caterpillar, on the other hand, wants to cut wages from $35 an hour to $16.50.

The company says, at least publicly, the reason for such a dramatic rollback is the time honored “need to remain competitive.” Who are they competing against? Their main competitor, General Electric, agreed in 2010 to a four-year deal that pays most of its American workers $30 an hour plus benefits.

In reality, Caterpillar is competing against itself.

The reality of corporate greed

scribblet · January 5, 2012

It's still not clear to me whether there were subsidies for Electro-Motive specifically or if the government simply announced tax breaks that apply to all companies and happened to use an EM plant for this purpose.

I'm not clear on that either, I think you are correct, the tax breaks were for all companies, how would the gov't know to exempt Greenbriar (Electro-Motive) would sell to Caterpillar.

While I agree that the gov't can't step in here, a 50% reduction in compensation is too much to ask, but I doubt that Caterpillar cares, my guess is they are moving anyway. Maybe the strike will provide the momentum to pack it up more quickly.

MiddleClassCentrist · January 5, 2012

Big surprise.. The union makes it so unprofitable for CAT

Yeah, CAT is really hurting... (Maybe you should research your comments before making them)

Caterpillar profits rose 44% by October

“We’re having a great year in 2011, and 2012 is shaping up to be better,” said Douglas R. Oberhelman, Caterpillar’s chief executive.

Rick · January 5, 2012

I'm not clear on that either, I think you are correct, the tax breaks were for all companies, how would the gov't know to exempt Greenbriar (Electro-Motive) would sell to Caterpillar.

While I agree that the gov't can't step in here, a 50% reduction in compensation is too much to ask, but I doubt that Caterpillar cares, my guess is they are moving anyway. Maybe the strike will provide the momentum to pack it up more quickly.

The Prime Minister showed no such reticence on Mar. 19, 2008 when he visited the Electro-Motive plant to showcase a $5-million federal tax break for buyers of the diesel locomotive-maker's wares and a wider $1-billion tax break on industrial capital investment.

The majority of comments there tells us that this will not end well for Harper. Voters are already comparing this to what Mulroney did to Canada back in the 80's

Edited January 5, 2012 by Rick

MiddleClassCentrist · January 5, 2012

Where is your evidence for this claim? Tax reductions are not subsidies.

The actual end outcome is nearly identical.

Whether the government gave them 1 billion, or reduced their taxes by 1 billion. The government is still out 1 billion.

And all they accomplished, was make a manufacturing plant easier to take over and shutter. When there could have been another buyer on the market that would have kept the plant in Canada.

Edited January 5, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

Topaz · January 5, 2012

Big surprise.. The union makes it so unprofitable for CAT to stay in Canada that they are willing to shut down a plant, forego tax breaks, and open a new plant in the states. Better blame the government for not forcing corporations to accept lower pre-tax profits!!!

NOT true. It was reported on the news that CAT to sell locomotive in the US they had to be MADE in the US! Canada got rid of that claus in the Auto Pact, the PC let it go, so now all US companies can pull out and give all the work to the US workers. Fine that that`s the way the US companies want it but Canada shouldn`t allow US companies to get the breaks then move. This also doesn`t say much for Harper, but then he`s all for BUSINESS and not workers and we`ll see what the next election brings for the Tories. Those London MP`s better start thinking about what is best for their community and stop bowing to Harper, or THEY will end up on EI and Harper, which is now a millionaire, made by taxpayers, will leave with a champagne life.

Rick · January 5, 2012

NOT true. It was reported on the news that CAT to sell locomotive in the US they had to be MADE in the US! Canada got rid of that claus in the Auto Pact, the PC let it go, so now all US companies can pull out and give all the work to the US workers. Fine that that`s the way the US companies want it but Canada shouldn`t allow US companies to get the breaks then move. This also doesn`t say much for Harper, but then he`s all for BUSINESS and not workers and we`ll see what the next election brings for the Tories. Those London MP`s better start thinking about what is best for their community and stop bowing to Harper, or THEY will end up on EI and Harper, which is now a millionaire, made by taxpayers, will leave with a champagne life.

All too true Topaz.

Paul Dewar said it best in this Hill Times article

“This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar said. “We’re talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Rick

Topaz · January 5, 2012

That's a point I'd like to pick at. There are no gurantees that a division is going to stay in Canada. If a company agrees, let's say for a bailout, to keep their plant in Canada, what is to REALLY stop them from packing it up a year or two later and dealing with the matter in court.

There are no guarantees that a company will stay in Canada. NONE. If you what to go down the protectionism path, then you are shooting yourself in the other foot. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

Let`s talk about staying in Canada. One company Navistar in Ontario pulled out their business and transfered it down to Mexico, in 2009 BUT, they still are paying out for security and office managers running the office. The Harper gov`t has said in the past they don`t get involved with strike unless its hurting the economy, well that economy down in Chatham-Kent, unemployment is anywhere from 10% up, probably closer to 20%. Crime has soared, and those who could afford to move, moved. So, since Navistar wants to leave why hasn't it? IS it the closing cost, the clean up which could cost them millions because what`s been buried under ground for since the early 1930`s? Beside that, the workers still have no settlement from the company and the company keep stalling and stalling. So I understand what the workers are standing up to because they know about Navistar and they know it could happen to them and they are in this fight without any help from a government whom they supported and elected MP`s for the Tory party. That party is letting them down and the voters will remember that at the next election!

MiddleClassCentrist · January 5, 2012

While I agree that the gov't can't step in here, a 50% reduction in compensation is too much to ask, but I doubt that Caterpillar cares, my guess is they are moving anyway. Maybe the strike will provide the momentum to pack it up more quickly.

The Harper Government can step in and has stepped in very recently into these disputes (Air Canada). But a Conservative government taken the side of the average canadian? is that a joke? It will and always will continue to only step in to assist corporations. That is what our current brand of conservatives do.

Jerry J. Fortin · January 5, 2012

Sorry folks, but welcome to the real world. Since we signed into the North American Free Trade Agreement we have given away the farm. We can protect NOTHING. It leaves the door open to the USA, but it really is a one way street.

In this case I invite folks to look into what happened with the truck plant that went on strike, the outcome is assured. The plant gets closed and the company reaps the tax rewards for shutting it down. If you doubt this talk to your friendly accountant buddy. Its just dollars and common sense.

CPCFTW · January 5, 2012

Yeah, CAT is really hurting... (Maybe you should research your comments before making them)

Caterpillar profits rose 44% by October

I clearly meant relatively unprofitable (relative to closing up shop and going to the US). :rolleyes:

Furthermore, we're talking about this plant, and these 500 workers, not all of CAT. Do you think these 500 workers generated CAT's $4-5 Billion profit? (Hint: Caterpillar has over 120k employees. Maybe you should think before posting). :lol: :rolleyes:

Edited January 5, 2012 by CPCFTW

CPCFTW · January 5, 2012

The reality of corporate greed

$35/hr?!! No wonder they're packing up! :lol:

If I was a CAT investor (and I am indirectly through US market ETFs), I'd be furious if they chose to pay Canadian workers $35/hr instead of paying an American $18/hr.

Yes Nathan Smith, this does impact us all. We all have to pay taxes to buy these trains at inflated prices and many of us have an interest (through US market exposure in RRSPs and Pensions) in CAT continuing to strive for excellent investor returns.

:lol: at his last comment...

The impact will be even greater if more than 500 workers give back half their salaries with no questions asked. The millions in ‘savings’ won’t be spent in our community. The money will vanish into the pockets of Caterpillar executives - none of whom live, work, or play in London, Ontario.

So clueless. :rolleyes:

You can bet dollars to donuts that Nathan Smith dumps his money into mutual funds and then wonders why his funds aren't performing well. Must be the execs pocketing his money! :lol:

Edited January 5, 2012 by CPCFTW