France, Turkey row escalating

[olp1fan]

I admit I am unfamiliar with this so I will have to read up on it..I know both these countries are important players in NATO

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16306376

Ankara is recalling its ambassador and freezing political visits as well as joint military projects, including exercises, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

The bill was passed by the French National Assembly on Thursday and is due to go before the Senate next year.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe has publicly opposed it.

Under the bill, those publicly denying genocide would face a year in jail and a fine of 45,000 euros (£29,000; $58,000).

Armenians say up to 1.5 million people were killed by the Ottoman Turks in 1915-16.

Ankara says closer to 300,000 people died, and that Turks were also killed as Armenians rose up against the Ottoman Empire when Russian troops invaded eastern Anatolia, now eastern Turkey.

More than 20 countries have formally recognised the killings as genocide.

'Irreparable wounds'

According to French news agency AFP, angry crowds in the Turkish capital, Ankara, have been chanting: "We have not committed genocide, we defended the homeland.

"Wait for us France, we will come."

Speaking in Ankara, Mr Erdogan suggested the bill would create lasting damage to relations with France.

"This will open very grave and irreparable wounds," he said.

Mr Erdogan told reporters: "This is politics based on racism, discrimination and xenophobia.

"This is using Turkophobia and Islamophobia to gain votes, and it raises concerns regarding these issues not only in France but all Europe."

He said Ankara would cancel permission for French military planes to land and warships to dock in Turkey as a result of the bill, Reuters news agency reports.

Relations between the two countries are at an all-time low thanks to French President Nicholas Sarkozy's opposition to Turkey's bid for membership of the EU, the BBC's David O'Byrne reports from Istanbul.

'Inspired by European law'

The bill's author, Valerie Boyer from France's ruling conservative UMP party, said she was "shocked" at Turkey's intervention.

"My bill doesn't aim at any particular country," she said.

"It is inspired by European law, which says that the people who deny the existence of the genocides must be sanctioned."

Maurice Delighazarian, 75, lost his grandparents in 1915.

Our ancestors can finally rest in peace," he was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency in Paris.

Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian thanked the French parliament, and France's "top leadership" and its people, for the bill.

France had, he said, "once again proved its commitment to universal human values".

But Mr Juppe criticised the proposed law, which follows France's formal recognition of the killings as genocide in 2001. No penalty was attached for denial at the time.

Mr Juppe told reporters it was a critical juncture in the Middle East and he emphasised the role Turkey had been playing in the Arab Spring, as well as the strong economic ties that existed between Turkey and France.

"It [the bill] is useless and counter-productive," he said.

His disapproval appears to be in direct conflict with the tacit support that has been given by President Nicolas Sarkozy to the bill, the BBC's Christian Fraser reports from Paris.

There are some half a million ethnic Armenians living in France and their vote is considered important in next year's presidential election, our correspondent notes.

Edited December 22, 2011 by olp1fan

[olp1fan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition

These countries have all recognized the Armenian Genocide

Argentina

Armenia

Belgium

Canada

Chile

Cyprus

France

Greece

Italy

Lithuania

Lebanon

Netherlands

Poland

Russia Slovakia

Switzerland

Uruguay

Vatican City

Venezuela

43 American states

South Australia and New South Wales

Crimea, Ukraine

Basque and Catalonia Spain

[jbg]

It seems as if the current Turkish government has some very peculiar and selective sensitivities. They resent being called to task on what was basically an Islamist massacre. Parenthetically all Islamist massacres are apparently exceptions to normal human rights considerations. But Turkey seems t o believe that such criticisms are interference in its internal affairs.

Yet it has also frozen relations with Israel after it assisted in trying to run Israel's blockage of Gaza.

Consistency? I doubt it.

[Black Dog]

It seems as if the current Turkish government has some very peculiar and selective sensitivities. They resent being called to task on what was basically an Islamist massacre. Parenthetically all Islamist massacres are apparently exceptions to normal human rights considerations.

Um. How is it an "Islamist" massacre? Because the perpetrators were Muslim?

[Wild Bill]

Um. How is it an "Islamist" massacre? Because the perpetrators were Muslim?

Uh, how else? Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were Ebonian?

[DogOnPorch]

Uh, how else? Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were Ebonian?

Some of the top 'Islamist' of the coming years were serving in the Ottoman military cutting their teeth on the Armenians.

[cybercoma]

Uh, how else? Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were Ebonian?

Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were predominantly Protestant?

[DogOnPorch]

Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were predominantly Protestant?

If it was Protestants murdering millions of Armenians, yes. But they didn't.

[Black Dog]

Uh, how else? Would it be called the same if the perpetrators were Ebonian?

Islamist is usually used to denote a specific strain of militant and political Islam rooted in Wahhabism. It's not a catch-all for "bad things Muslims do"

[DogOnPorch]

Islamist is usually used to denote a specific strain of militant and political Islam rooted in Wahhabism. It's not a catch-all for "bad things Muslims do"

Really? Well...you are right. You are critical of the Saudis.

[bud]

feel the wrath of jbg. this, even after the ottoman empire took in sephardic jews after the spanish inquisition.

even the persians saved the jews a couple of times, yet, jbg continues to be ungrateful.

[jbg]

feel the wrath of jbg. this, even after the ottoman empire took in sephardic jews after the spanish inquisition.

even the persians saved the jews a couple of times, yet, jbg continues to be ungrateful.

The Jews were hardly treated as equals by the very generous Ottomans. The system the Jews existed under was called "dhimmitude". The Jews had to pay a "gizya", a tax, while small, that was designed to be humiliating. Synagogues had to be constructed at a level lower than mosques. Their political rights were quite limited.

While better than death under the Spanish Inquisition and expulsions, Jewish life in the Ottoman Empire was not that great.

[WWWTT]

Didn't France cause some problems in say Vietnam?!?Or south east Asia?Or how about China and the opium wars?

As far as I am concerned pretty much all humans in every corner of the world has committed some kind of autausity/human right violation.

I wonder if the French would still penalize those who deny French human right violations around the world?

WWWTT

[bud]

The Jews were hardly treated as equals by the very generous Ottomans. The system the Jews existed under was called "dhimmitude". The Jews had to pay a "gizya", a tax, while small, that was designed to be humiliating. Synagogues had to be constructed at a level lower than mosques. Their political rights were quite limited.

While better than death under the Spanish Inquisition and expulsions, Jewish life in the Ottoman Empire was not that great.

so ungrateful. at least they took them in. look at the modern israel, they're driving muslims out.

what about the persians who saved the jews not once but twice? why are you so ungrateful to the persians?

[cybercoma]

The Jews were hardly treated as equals by the very generous Ottomans. The system the Jews existed under was called "dhimmitude". The Jews had to pay a "gizya", a tax, while small, that was designed to be humiliating. Synagogues had to be constructed at a level lower than mosques. Their political rights were quite limited.

While better than death under the Spanish Inquisition and expulsions, Jewish life in the Ottoman Empire was not that great.

"If they don't like their laws and values they can leave."

Remember that?

I mean, I don't agree. I think the laws are terrible, but there's a good number of people that argue from that POV here.

[cybercoma]

so ungrateful. at least they took them in. look at the modern israel, they're driving muslims out.

what about the persians who saved the jews not once but twice? why are you so ungrateful to the persians?

Well, for starters, Persia today is not the Persia of yesterday.

[jbg]

As far as I am concerned pretty much all humans in every corner of the world has committed some kind of autausityatrocity/human right violation.

Fixed it.

[dre]

Well, for starters, Persia today is not the Persia of yesterday.

Jews dont seem to be treated too bad in persia today.

[jbg]

Jews dont seem to be treated too bad in persia today.

In fact, they increase Jewish numbers by separating heads from the rest of bodies.

[dre]

In fact, they increase Jewish numbers by separating heads from the rest of bodies.

Actually only 13 jews in Iran have been executed since the revolution compared to hundreds of muslims and arabs.

The Constitution of Iran says that Jews are equal to Muslims. Imam Khomeini visited with members of the Jewish community and issued a decree ordering the adherents of Judaism and other revealed religions to be protected. Jews are entitled to self-administration and one member of the 290-seat Majlis is elected by only Jews. Jewish burial rites and divorce laws are accepted by Islamic courts. Tehran has over 20 synagogues. Iran has one of only four Jewish charity hospitals in the world. The hospital has received donations from top Iranian officials, including President Ahmadinejad. Kosher butcher shops are available in Iran. There are Hebrew schools and coeducation is allowed

[Wild Bill]

Actually only 13 jews in Iran have been executed since the revolution compared to hundreds of muslims and arabs.

Good lord! Only 13 Jew? Only some hundreds of muslims and arabs?

I didn't know you supported the death penalty, Dre! What's more, I'm sure that they all had a proper trial and were guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

Next you'll be telling us that only 11 of them were women who were executed by stoning! 'Course, it was alright 'cuz their husbands swore on their Koran that their wives had gone out and let their ankles show!

[jbg]

Good lord! Only 13 Jew? Only some hundreds of muslims and arabs?

I didn't know you supported the death penalty, Dre! What's more, I'm sure that they all had a proper trial and were guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

Next you'll be telling us that only 11 of them were women who were executed by stoning! 'Course, it was alright 'cuz their husbands swore on their Koran that their wives had gone out and let their ankles show!

The good thing in the Muslim world is the progress they're making against sorcery and witchcraft. Link No. 1. Link No. 2.

[dre]

Good lord! Only 13 Jew? Only some hundreds of muslims and arabs?

I didn't know you supported the death penalty, Dre! What's more, I'm sure that they all had a proper trial and were guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

Next you'll be telling us that only 11 of them were women who were executed by stoning! 'Course, it was alright 'cuz their husbands swore on their Koran that their wives had gone out and let their ankles show!

You can bullshit all you want, but the reality is Irans jews are treated pretty well. When you consider all the lame brained retards that think Iran is bent on exterminating the jewish race, you gotta wonder why they dont start at home, and why they have laws that specifical protect the jewish religion.

Edited December 24, 2011 by dre

[dre]

The good thing in the Muslim world is the progress they're making against sorcery and witchcraft. Link No. 1. Link No. 2.

Great. A retarded off topic post about nothing, and no response at all defending the horseshit you spouted in your last post, after I proved it was bunk.

[jbg]

Great. A retarded off topic post about nothing, and no response at all defending the horseshit you spouted in your last post, after I proved it was bunk.

I was admiring Arab progress.