Quebec Pupil Wears Headphones to Avoid Hearing Music

[Guest American Woman]

Music is an important part of the human experience. Denying your child access to music is no different than refusing to teach your kid to read. An outright prohibition is child abuse.

How would you feel if parents told their female children that they had to leave the classroom if a male teacher entered the room?

I agree. Music is calming, it soothes the soul. I can't imagine life without music.

I wonder if some of these people who have such problems with our public schools, our societies, should question if they are living in the country that is best for them. What next? No more music in elevators? No more music in park squares? On the streets? Lest we offend someone's religious beliefs?

There comes a time when they must live by the 'norms' of our societies if this is where they choose to live.

[cybercoma]

I agree. Music is calming, it soothes the soul. I can't imagine life without music.

Yeah.

I like to light a nice fire, grab myself a glass of wine and just kick back, relax, and put a little music on.

[Wilber]

All I'm saying is that their prohibition raises interesting questions that the rest of us should consider, not the least of which is the messaging in the music that we're bombarded with and can't avoid.

Really, like what? A department of acceptable music for public places (whatever the hell that might be and according to whom) and a music police? They can shove their prohibition where the sun don't shine, it's their problem. The world is full of offensive things and I am not about to give up my freedom to be subjected to them in order to accommodate their nuttiness.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Wilber

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah.

I like to light a nice fire, grab myself a glass of wine and just kick back, relax, and put a little music on.

Uh huh. And I'm sure that's the music that the kindergartners are listening to also. Here's an interesting reality that you might not be aware of in light of your response - there's all kinds of music out there.

[cybercoma]

Uh huh. And I'm sure that's the music that the kindergartners are listening to also. Here's an interesting reality that you might not be aware of in light of your response - there's all kinds of music out there.

Even kinds of music that aren't calming and relaxing? I wouldn't have known it from your original post.

[cybercoma]

I am not about to give up my freedom

Settle down. No one's asking you to give up anything. In any case, if I blast my music next door to you at 4am are you going to go to court to defend your right to be subjected to my music?

[jbg]

Moreover, do you hold the same standards for other types of religious accommodation in our country? I mean, I didn't see you arguing that Jewish Montrealers should go to Israel if they want quiet on Rosh Hashanah. That case is arguably worse because they actually legislated their religious observance.

This was a municipal bylaw criticized by the Quebec government but without getting into the details of your comparison, the simple fact is that Jews are not perceived as a threat to the West or Western values.

I join with Cybercoma (a Kodak moment, I suppose) in condemning those laws as a matter of principal. I have no problem with posting signs asking people to be quiet or respectful near houses of worship on holidays. I do have a problem with laws that hamper the freedom of others because of those holidays.

The furthest I go in favor of those kinds of laws is providing for school closings on days where the demographics mandate that majority of people will be out of school anyway.

[jbg]

Tell that to the passengers of the St. Louis. They may not be a "threat" now, but a generation ago they were. It shows how these sorts of ethnocentric perceptions change over time. Muslims are today's Jews or going back further Irish.

Unlike the post above, I differ with you here. The Jews were never a violent threat to anyone. The worry about the Saint Louis was more that the voting public wouldn't go for reopening immigration for the Jews' benefit. Most Jews were in professions and/or operated small businesses, skills easily transplant-able to Canada or the U.S. They were generally not drifters looking for trouble.

[bud]

Could be a new movie here in the works. Footloose : Islam

lols

in all seriousness, how many muslims do you guys know who do not listen to music or do not allow their children to listen to music? from the few muslims that i know, neither have anything against music. in fact, one of them will most likely be getting a seat at the vancouver symphony orchestra soon (a briliant violinist) and another is a relatively successful dj.

the reason that we're hearing about a news like this for the first time in canada is because it's not a common practice in islam. especially when it comes to muslims outside of wahabist sects.

it's SO wrong to use this story and try to make it look like all muslims do this.

[dre]

I wonder if some of these people who have such problems with our public schools, our societies, should question if they are living in the country that is best for them. What next? No more music in elevators? No more music in park squares? On the streets? Lest we offend someone's religious beliefs?

There comes a time when they must live by the 'norms' of our societies if this is where they choose to live.

No there really doesnt "come such a time". In Canada and the US your right to express your own culture and religion doesnt expire. They are not allowed to violate the criminal code, but beyond that they are free to do what they choose just like you and me.

What next? No more music in elevators? No more music in park squares? On the streets? Lest we offend someone's religious beliefs?

Nope. None of those things are next. People are subjected to sound they dont like every day. It causes problems, and the sounds some people make often annoy others, so most municipalities have a bunch of different bylaws that govern how much noise you are allowed to make. But people are free to wear headphones to block out noise if they want to, or carry their own device to make their own noise.

Edited December 24, 2011 by dre

[Wilber]

Settle down. No one's asking you to give up anything. In any case, if I blast my music next door to you at 4am are you going to go to court to defend your right to be subjected to my music?

I shouldn't have to tell you this but blasting your music outside my door at 4 AM would be no different from revving up your Harley at 4 AM and yes, I might call the cops if you didn't do anything after I asked you to turn it down. Other than mediate, the police wouldn't do anything unless you were breaking a law and my religious beliefs would have no bearing on any action they might take.

I could care less if the kid wears ear plugs at school but there is no way the school should be enabling her behaviour. She can bring her own earplugs and if she flunks a course because she can't hear what's going on, that's her and her parents problem. Society can't legislate against people being ignorant but it can sure as hell make it easier for them.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Wilber

[cybercoma]

Unlike the post above, I differ with you here. The Jews were never a violent threat to anyone. The worry about the Saint Louis was more that the voting public wouldn't go for reopening immigration for the Jews' benefit. Most Jews were in professions and/or operated small businesses, skills easily transplant-able to Canada or the U.S. They were generally not drifters looking for trouble.

Ah. Now you qualify it as a violent threat. Yet, you make the ecological fallacy of claiming that Muslims are a risk because they are Muslim. You're attributing to individuals characteristics that you observe about the group. One would think that Muslims coming to Canada or the US for that matter are probably trying to flee the secular violence in their homelands, not bring it with them. You're also making it seem as though any violent fanatic can get into either country without a problem. These things are not true and they don't actually have anything to do wtih accommodating a student for his religious beliefs or explaining to the parents why it's not possible.

[cybercoma]

it's SO wrong to use this story and try to make it look like all muslims do this.

Exactly. Which is why things like this need to be taken on a case by case basis.

[msj]

Are you being serious here or are you just trolling?

Pointing out the stupidity of what you have stated in this single instance.

Perhaps you have just made an honest mistake over timing.

But it really looks like you don't have a clue what you're talking about if you don't understand that "Orwellian" is a relatively recent concept that people from pre-1950 would have no comprehension of (the term, although far too many would understand the practice).

[cybercoma]

So you actually believe that I thought Orwell was hundreds of years ago?

Orwellian is an adjective used to describe a particular type of dystopian future society. I was not using the word as if that's how they would describe it, referring to Orwell's writings. I was using Orwellian to describe what their experience in this present-day would be like. Orwellian is used as an adjective in the same way as Kafkaesque or Quixotic. This I would think is obvious.

[msj]

So you actually believe that I thought Orwell was hundreds of years ago?

Orwellian is an adjective used to describe a particular type of dystopian future society. I was not using the word as if that's how they would describe it, referring to Orwell's writings. I was using Orwellian to describe what their experience in this present-day would be like. Orwellian is used as an adjective in the same way as Kafkaesque or Quixotic. This I would think is obvious.

Fair enough. Perhaps I was being too pedantic.

[August1991]

The Norwegian killer fighting to protect wholesome Christian values and keep immigrants out of his country isn't a representation of Christianity, although he used its values for his political agenda. All the innocent civilians that were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed as a result of the commands of a President that went on record to say that God told him to go to war. Catholics and Protestants murdered each other in the streets of Belgrad for their political whims backed by religious values. There is all kinds of violence in this world backed up by religion, but that does not mean everyone or even a majority of the people of that religion follow it.

A lone Norwegian whacko is tragic but not a threat to Western civilization.

19 guys with box cutters, several guys that get on London busses or lay bombs in Madrid or in Indonesian discos are a different story.

Catholics and Protestants murdering each other in Ireland did not pose a physical or spiritual threat to people in France or New Jersey. No one in California was suddenly afraid of nuns who covered their hair. Heck, Whoopi Goldberg made a movie or two dressed as one.

Would she make such a movie now dressed in niqab? Cybercoma, even you should see that this is not a joking matter.

You're right. The problem is that perceptions are deceiving and we have media to thank for shaping those perceptions. Just to give you an example, FOX does an exceptionally poor job of actually informing people according to many recent studies. This is where people's perceptions come from. CNN isn't sending a filming crew to peaceful places in the Middle East.

You seem to think that this is only a problem of perception. Indeed, that's how I have made my argument too: "Many westerners perceive (radical) Muslims as a threat to the West."

Cybercoma, you seem to think that these westerners are deluded (by Fox News or CNN). Deluded? Who placed the bombs in Madrid and London? Even the Soviet Union did not change the NYC skyline as radical Muslims did.

-----

I lived and worked in the Middle East for several years and I recall a conversation that I had with a Belgian in Damascus in the 1990s. I think he worked in the oil business as an expat. I remember that the conversation suddenly turned dark and he went into a rant about the dangers of Islam to the West. I laughed at the time, thinking that he was exaggerating. Liberal Western Civilization has withstood far worse threats, I thought - not the least Soviet and Maoist Communism. Once ordinary Muslims are exposed to western society, they will see the light.

Now, I am not so certain.

First, it seems to me that we are fighting a battle that intellectuals fought almost 300 years ago. It would be foolish to pretend that the war was won. (The term used in Quebec now is obscurantisme. I'm surprised to see this word come back.)

Second, we in the West have "values" to defend. When Muslims argue that they hold certain practices or values dear, then we as Westerners have every right to argue that we also have values that we hold dear.

Cybercoma, a hallmark of the scientific method is an open mind, the avoidance of prejudice. We in the West must start to apply our accumulated wisdom.

-----

To return to the OP, IMHO, a parent who forbids a child to hear music is not Canadian. I am appalled that our State is a party to such inhumanity.

[August1991]

in all seriousness, how many muslims do you guys know who do not listen to music or do not allow their children to listen to music? from the few muslims that i know, neither have anything against music. in fact, one of them will most likely be getting a seat at the vancouver symphony orchestra soon (a briliant violinist) and another is a relatively successful dj.

the reason that we're hearing about a news like this for the first time in canada is because it's not a common practice in islam. especially when it comes to muslims outside of wahabist sects.

it's SO wrong to use this story and try to make it look like all muslims do this.

There are no cinemas in Saudi Arabia. No theatres. No public concerts. No one ever sees a Shakespeare play. No one ever sings in unison.

"Outside of wahabist sects"?

----

A few weeks ago, I was in Europe walking around a (rebuilt) medieval German cathedral. At the time, I was reading about construction in Montreal where I learned that Montreal cathedrals are "frauds". Built in the 1800s, Quebec cathedrals do not have supporting walls, or they have fake ones, unlike the original medieval ones in Europe.

Then, I wondered why Europeans built large Cathedrals with complicated supports 900 years ago. Was that the medieval equivalent of 21st century sports arena envy? Then I realized that European medieval churchs have a striking resemblance to crusader castles in the Middle East. (I have seen many in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan). They were protected places - like monasteries in Bulgaria, Greece and Macedonia.

And in these monasteries, cathedrals, churches - people sang in unison.

Is it any wonder that Christians, and we Westerners, sing.

Edited December 24, 2011 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

If anything is a threat to the west, it is ourselves not being able to talk to each other. If we can't agree on how to solve problems, then it doesn't matter what the external threat is. It could be a mosquito, and it would still trip us up.

We have a way to solve these questions, and it seems to get it right most of the time so why do we waste energy talking about these things ?

The Chinese have a saying: "Big things collapse from within."

[August1991]

If anything is a threat to the west, it is ourselves not being able to talk to each other.

I remember the first time I went to New York, stepping out of the subway, and seeing the World Trade Center.

It's not there anymore.

----

This threat is greater than "ourselves not being able to talk to each other".

[Michael Hardner]

This threat is greater than "ourselves not being able to talk to each other".

No it is not. You are so wrong.

Our entire society depends on a leadership making intelligent decisions. If you haven't been paying attention, the quality of debate and of candidates in our democracy has been on the wane. Take a look at the past 20, 40, 60 years and tell me I'm wrong on that.

The 9/11 attacks were tragic and shocking, but in terms of actual damage to ourselves and our economy, hardly a blip. And they haven't been repeated.

[August1991]

The 9/11 attacks were tragic and shocking, but in terms of actual damage to ourselves and our economy, hardly a blip.

Blip? Every Hollywood movie of New York since 2001 is a reminder of what (extremist) Muslims did to America. The Twin Towers date movies, and what happened.

And they haven't been repeated.

Except in London and Madrid.

----

IMHO, we in the West have values to defend.

Edited December 24, 2011 by August1991

[Guest Manny]

Like it or not, many people in the West view Islam as a threat to the modern, western world. They do not fear other religions or ideologies in the same way.

Why? Because it is anti-materlialist, which is so very central to our core values.

[August1991]

Why? Because it is anti-materlialist, which is so very central to our core values.

Materialist? I suspect that many westerners view Islam as a threat because radical Muslims destroyed large western buildings (WTC) and killed thousands.

Westerners and Christians also like music, and we often sing, women and men together, in unison. We also like depictions - we have learned from the "Renaissance" and the "Enlightenment".

So for us, (radical) Islam is a threat.

Edited December 24, 2011 by August1991

[dre]

No it is not. You are so wrong.

Our entire society depends on a leadership making intelligent decisions. If you haven't been paying attention, the quality of debate and of candidates in our democracy has been on the wane. Take a look at the past 20, 40, 60 years and tell me I'm wrong on that.

The 9/11 attacks were tragic and shocking, but in terms of actual damage to ourselves and our economy, hardly a blip. And they haven't been repeated.

The real thread is the simpering security obsessed cowards are so easily parted with their money. It makes us really easy pickings for terrorists who simply poke us with a stick now and then, and watching us run around like chickens with our heads cut off, giving semi trucks full of thousand dollar bills to the defense industry.