Moonlight Graham Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Thought this subject was interesting. From another thread, dre replying to me re: pledging allegiance to the Queen of Canada: Excuse me? I will pledge allegience to absolutely god damn nothing. My allegience to the government is a PRIVILEGE that they must continue to EARN on an ongoing basis. It doesnt get "pledged". Fair enough. I just wanted to share with others on here what i learned years ago in university, some of which surprised me, about specifically what the Crown and the Queen of Canada is and what it/she represents. When someone pledges allegiance to the Queen they aren't really pledging allegiance to the individual person or glorifying her. From my dusty 2nd year university Canadian political institutions textbook by Rand Dyck: "The concept of the Crown is not widely understood by Canadians...For example, since the Queen represents the whole state (of Canada) and its people, oaths of allegiance to the Queen are really pledges of support for the Canadian political system, and "God Save the Queen" really means "God help us govern ourselves". To put the Queen's picture on stamps and coins, in classrooms or courtrooms, is not to glorify her personally, but to recognize her as a unifying symbol of the state." More from the textbook... "The Crown is not only the collectivity of executive powers; it also represents the entire state and embodies what belongs to the people collectively. This can be seen in ie: Crown lands (state-owned lands), and Crown corporations etc. ... The Queen embodies the Crown. The term 'royal' is also widely used in Canada to refer to institutions that function for the advantage of all in the name of the Queen, ie: Royal Canadian Mint, royal commissions, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police etc." So pledging allegiance to the Queen isn't really pledging allegiance to the woman personally, more like pledging support for the state of Canada and its institutions. Similar to how pledging allegiance to a flag isn't pledging allegiance to a piece of coloured cloth, but what it represents. And, of course, the Queen is not a foreign monarch and to Canadians is not the Queen of the U.K./Britain/England, but officially known as the Queen of Canada. "The Queen's relationship with Canada no longer has anything to do with the country called the United Kingdom". She is equally the monarch for all the Commonwealth countries, including the U.K. and Canada. Edited December 14, 2011 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) To put the Queen's picture on stamps and coins, in classrooms or courtrooms, is not to glorify her personally, but to recognize her as a unifying symbol of the state. Of course. That's all Gaddafi was doing too, right? Mugabe? Even now, Kim Jong-il, is he just unifying the state symbolically? Aziz Al Saud in Saudi Arabia? What about Kagame in Rwanda? Edited December 14, 2011 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Of course. That's all Gaddafi was doing too, right? Mugabe? Even now, Kim Jong-il, is he just unifying the state symbolically? Aziz Al Saud in Saudi Arabia? What about Kagame in Rwanda? What the blue hell does any of that have to do with the Canadian monarchy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Of course. That's all Gaddafi was doing too, right? Mugabe? Even now, Kim Jong-il, is he just unifying the state symbolically? Aziz Al Saud in Saudi Arabia? What about Kagame in Rwanda? whaaa! See "Harper Government" label revision... unifying the state symbolically! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 check out whats going on in Papua New Guinea right now http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16172874 its relevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 And, of course, the Queen is not a foreign monarch and to Canadians is not the Queen of the U.K./Britain/England, but officially known as the Queen of Canada. "The Queen's relationship with Canada no longer has anything to do with the country called the United Kingdom". She is equally the monarch for all the Commonwealth countries, including the U.K. and Canada. If one looks at cultural obeisance and honors she's Queen of the U.S. itself, even though our Constitution forbids installing a monarch directly. The Queen was at our observance of the 400th anniversary of British settlement at Jamestown. The Queen was a visitor shortly before the bicentennial observance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Of course. That's all Gaddafi was doing too, right? Mugabe? Even now, Kim Jong-il, is he just unifying the state symbolically? Aziz Al Saud in Saudi Arabia? What about Kagame in Rwanda? The difference between those figures and our queen of course being that they're the active governors of their respective countries with no accountability to anyone besides, perhaps, appeasement to their generals, whereas Elizabeth II, at all times but during the most egregious crises, leaves governance to parliament, ministers drawn from and responsible to the elected chamber of parliament, and the courts, and is herself accountable to the legislature. [ed.: +] Edited December 14, 2011 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 When someone pledges allegiance to the Queen they aren't really pledging allegiance to the individual person or glorifying her. [it's] more like pledging support for the state of Canada and its institutions. That's right: the Queen is the personification of the state, which is more than politics and more, even, than the government. dre can thus rest assured that he doesn't have to give allegiance to the government in this country; that is the practice of totalitarian states where one is forced to ally themselves with the governing party and its policies. And, of course, the Queen is not a foreign monarch and to Canadians is not the Queen of the U.K./Britain/England, but officially known as the Queen of Canada. Also correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 So instead of pledging an oath to who governs you it's pledged to how they govern you. That sounds even more hopelessly rigid and changeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 That sounds even more hopelessly rigid and changeless. You don't see value in law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) You don't see value in law? I'm pretty sure I see more than you do actually. Edited December 14, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm pretty sure I see more than you do actually. Whether it's more than me or not, if you do, why then are you complaining about promising to abide by the rule of law as personified by the Queen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Whether it's more than me or not, if you do, why then are you complaining about promising to abide by the rule of law as personified by the Queen? I'd rather see the rule of law personified by the people who are most affected by them, not some symbolic figurehead that's thousands of miles away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'd rather see the rule of law personified by the people... Except that The People is a neboulous, ill-defined concept. At least with the Queen (who's vested with authority by us through our constitution) we know exactly what we're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Except that The People is a neboulous, ill-defined concept. I didn't say The People. I meant real people in a more regional context, above some symbolic figurehead that's thousands of miles away. At least with the Queen (who's vested with authority by us through our constitution) we know exactly what we're talking about. Well, I would have thought the damn Queen and constitution could have protected the people in my region from the decades of the Crown's/State's mismanagement that ruined most of our fisheries to the point of their extinction and our economic collapse. All we were told however was how the Crown had a fiduciary and constitutional responsibility to some nebulous ill defined concept called...The People, strangely enough. Edited December 14, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you're going to have just some random Joe as the symbol, what difference does it make if it's the Royal Family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I meant real people in a more regional context, above some symbolic figurehead that's thousands of miles away. How bizarre; Elizabeth is a less real person because of her proximity to... where, exactly? Ottawa? Cape Spear? Well, I would have thought the damn Queen and constitution could have protected the people in my region from the decades of the Crown's/State's mismanagement that ruined most of our fisheries to the point of their extinction and our economic collapse. The Queen can really only do what the constitution allows her to, and that does not include stepping into political matters such as the one you refer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 And now we are going to be endowed with another visit from Big Ears & Horsey, endowed, that is, with another 8 million dollar bill to host & entertain 2 farcical "royals" who couldn't get elected to kingship in a fixed election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The Queen can really only do what the constitution allows her to, and that does not include stepping into political matters such as the one you refer to. Exactly. Comparing her to Gaddafi or Kim Jong-Il etc. is a bit ridiculous since "the people" have been limiting the powers of the monarch via law in our system since the Magna Carta in 1215. Elected government no longer acts as a check on the monarch's power as vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 How bizarre; Elizabeth is a less real person because of her proximity to... where, exactly? Ottawa? Cape Spear? You know what's really bizarre? Calling her a personification of the state, more than politics and more, even, than the government. You make her sound surreal. The Queen can really only do what the constitution allows her to, and that does not include stepping into political matters such as the one you refer to. That's right, she's completely useless. As for the management of things that people and communities rely on for their day to day livelihoods these should be matters of local governance, not distant politics. I'm supposed to bow down to the personification of this state of affairs? She can kiss my hairy butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 You know what's really bizarre? Calling her a personification of the state, more than politics and more, even, than the government. You make her sound surreal. That's right, she's completely useless. As for the management of things that people and communities rely on for their day to day livelihoods these should be matters of local governance, not distant politics. I'm supposed to bow down to the personification of this state of affairs? She can kiss my hairy butt. You know she's Canada's Head of State, right? She's equal to the President in the US for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Comparing her to Gaddafi or Kim Jong-Il etc. is a bit ridiculous Of course it is, that's why the was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 You know she's Canada's Head of State, right? She's equal to the President in the US for us. She's way more useless than the President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 She's way more useless than the President. Is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted December 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 You know she's Canada's Head of State, right? She's equal to the President in the US for us. Not equal. The Queen is our head of state, Harper is our head of government. The US President is head of state and head of government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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