Black Dog Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Why not just come right out and say you'd like to kill me? Afraid? Why would I do that when I don't? Besides, you're the one who declared me the enemy after I pantsed you in an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 What I really don't understand is the fierce defense of the "right" to wear the Burka et al - as the state defines and restricts all kinds of "rights," including free speech, where there is the possibility of harm. Furthermore, I can't understand how people don't recognize the "harm" of the garment itself, especially for those being forced to wear it. There are so many reasons why such a garment is in itself harmful to women. But in the end, as I've said, it's basically saying that the men who control the women in their lives overrule the state protecting women from such abuse. And I have to wonder why no man has ever chosen to wear such a garment? well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Have a crappy holiday. That's a really nasty thing to say.... not called for at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Why would I do that when I don't? Besides, you're the one who declared me the enemy after I pantsed you in an argument. You did no such thing. But, you did insult me which earns you my contempt. So you don't want to kill me then. Just do physical harm. Well, that's very nice of you. I'll sleep better. Yes...enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) You did no such thing. Sure did. Owned you six ways from Sunday. No wonder you're sore. So you don't want to kill me then. Just do physical harm. Keep in mind the comment that precipitated this discussion was your line about me wanting to put AW in a niqab. I probably should have let it slide, but sometimes you need to give the yappy little mutt in the room a swift kick. Edited December 22, 2011 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Canadian citizens are not foreigners and you don't get to pick and choose what races and ethnicities you will or will not accommodate. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms was designed so bigots like you don't get to make the rules. If I want to consider someone a backward foreigner the Charter has screw all to say on the matter. If I want to consider someone a hand-wringing, wishy-washy, spineless liberal twit, it likewise would not care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I certainly don't like everyone equally. In fact, I think you've been a dirtbag lately. However, I judge people on their ideas and what they do, not on their race, culture, or ethnicity, like you do. I judge people entirely on their behavior, which is why I consider anyone who wants to wear a sheet over their heads a backward fool, along with anyone else who wants them to. Not too impressed with those desperate to support them in their determination to remain backward and ignorant either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Not too impressed with those desperate to support them in their determination to remain backward and ignorant either. That's a ridiculous strawman argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I won't apologize for being intolerant of a culture that violates everything I stand for. .. apparently that makes me racist and bigot and if it does then I am a proud to be a racist and a bigot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 That's a ridiculous strawman argument. That looked like a statement not an argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 There is no "domestic violence" charge in Canada. You will not find it anywhere in the Criminal Code. The point is that across Canada the 'victim' has little say in whether charges are laid. That decision is up to the police and/or the Crown. And they don't care if the 'victim' says they don't want to lay charges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Sure did. Owned you six ways from Sunday. No wonder you're sore. Swaggering braggadocio is even less impressive when it's of an imagined victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Swaggering braggadocio is even less impressive when it's of an imagined victory. Looks like someone got a thesaurus for Christmas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I won't apologize for being intolerant of a culture that violates everything I stand for. .. apparently that makes me racist and bigot and if it does then I am a proud to be a racist and a bigot There's nothing wrong with being intolerant of oppressive and misogynistic things. Your problem is that you choose to define an entire culture by those things, then discriminate against individuals because they are part of that culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) The point is that across Canada the 'victim' has little say in whether charges are laid. That decision is up to the police and/or the Crown. And they don't care if the 'victim' says they don't want to lay charges. That's the direction the government has taken over the last 20 years, but it's not for lack of women's rights groups fighting to change that. Of course, Harper got rid of the funding for those groups. Nevertheless, there have been a few specialty courts setup for domestic violence--thanks to the efforts of a community of academics, law enforcement officers, and people in government--that operate on the notion of restorative justice, rather than punitive. They promote accountability for the offenders, as well as support for the victims. Edited December 22, 2011 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 There's nothing wrong with being intolerant of oppressive and misogynistic things. Your problem is that you choose to define an entire culture by those things, then discriminate against individuals because they are part of that culture. but their entire culture IS oppressive and intolerant .. even the muslim culture in canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 but their entire culture IS oppressive and intolerant .. even the muslim culture in canada You're saying that every single Muslim in Canada is oppressive and intolerant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 You're saying that every single Muslim in Canada is oppressive and intolerant? not them per se but their beliefs yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 There is no "domestic violence" charge in Canada. You will not find it anywhere in the Criminal Code. Family violence is against the law in Canada. Although the Criminal Code does not have a specific "family violence offence", an abuser can be charged with an applicable offence. Criminal charges could include: • assault • assault causing bodily harm • sexual assault • sexual assault causing bodily harm • sexual assault with a weapon • criminal harassment (sometimes called "stalking") • uttering threats • mischief • intimidation • forcible confinement • attempted murder, and • murder So it is against the law; an abuser can be charged with an applicable offense. Which is, semantics aside, the same thing, as in the end, it amounts to the same thing. So it's the reality that I'm interested in and it's the reality that I referred to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 How men feel towards women in Muslim society is irrelevant to the Canadian courts decision to remove the veil when taking the oath of citizenship for Canada. And that observation is completely irrelevant to anything I said in my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 but their entire culture IS oppressive and intolerant .. even the muslim culture in canada wow. just wow. how many muslims do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 wow. just wow. how many muslims do you know? some parts of the Muslim culture are the same everywhere... other parts are more extremist and are shunned by most Muslims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Of course the garment is harmful and that's why many who have said it should not be illegal to wear one have said that women need to supported and encouraged not to be subjected to it. Encouraged not to be subjected to it??? How is that possible? Are you going to encourage them to walk away from their families/spouses? And then what?? Seriously. However, you cannot say that every woman is violently forced to wear the thing. Which likely explains why I haven't said it. The problem is that you're advocating making a criminal out of the victim for wearing, rather than making a criminal out of the perpetrators of the oppression. No, it wouldn't. First of all, as I said, I think a fine will hit "the man/men of the house" harder than it will the woman who is oppressed and likely not out in the work world. As "repeat offenders" get a stiffer charge, it could end up in court, where it will come out that the man/men in her life are forcing it, and then they will be breaking the law. Also, if it is illegal to wear, it will be illegal for extremist groups to pay Muslim men for forcing it on the women in their lives, so it could bring charges to those complicit in it. At the same time, not getting money from extremist Muslim organizations likely would result in the men doing it for the money no longer forcing the women in their lives to cover up. However, if their women are going to be fined/charged for it, you think the men will want to see that happen to the women they think should not even be out in public uncovered? I think it would go far to prevent the forcing of it. You seriously think otherwise? Last but not least, a misdemeanor fine does not a criminal make. you seem to want to criminalize the oppressed, rather than the oppressors. What is "seems" to you is not the reality. See above. That is where we part ways because, while I find the oppression of women by forcing them to wear the burqa to be completely reprehensible, I find it quite offensive that anyone would make the victims criminals by banning them for exhibiting the signs of their oppression. And like I said, a misdemeanor charge does not a "criminal" make. Like I said, it's like making a woman a criminal for having a black eye in public. No, it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 some parts of the Muslim culture are the same everywhere... other parts are more extremist and are shunned by most Muslims just like in christianity, islam has several sects and sub-sects. for example: sunni, shia, wahabi, islmaili, bohris etc. and within these sects, for example, sunnnis, there are hanafi, sha'afi, hanbali, maliki etc. each of these groups have beliefs and interpretations that do not necessarily match with the others. for example: are muslim women in lebanon, turkey, palestine, egypt, morocco, jordon, indonesia, china required (or forced) to wear the hejab (head cover)? no. next time you try to paint a picture, remember that you'll end up looking quite ignorant if you use 1 stroke to paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 just like in christianity, islam has several sects and sub-sects. for example: sunni, shia, wahabi, islmaili, bohris etc. and within these sects, for example, sunnnis, there are hanafi, sha'afi, hanbali, maliki etc. each of these groups have beliefs and interpretations that do not necessarily match with the others. for example: are muslim women in lebanon, turkey, palestine, egypt, morocco, jordon, indonesia, china required (or forced) to wear the hejab (head cover)? no. next time you try to paint a picture, remember that you'll end up looking quite ignorant if you use 1 stroke to paint. I'm no religion lover (I hate all relgions) but it doesn't take a dumbass like me to see that Islam is more oppressive than Christianity in general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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