Is it time to abolish the provinces?

[takeanumber]

Decentralization to Quebec is about taking more money from Alberta and Ontario and spending it without federal guidelines.

Transfer payments are about equalization of existing services.

Alberta sure as hell doesn't want to pay to put Quebecois kids through daycare when Alberta can't even afford to put its own kids in daycare.

Ontario sure as hell doesn't want to pay out equalization funds to New Brunswick, which were intended to be used for healthcare, but ended up going to lawn equipment.

I don't think that the have-not's 'get it'.

They get sooo many tax points, and they still demand more money from Ottawa.

Yet...what they won't acknowledge, is that they get MOST of the money that they give Ottawa back, PLUS more money that comes from Alberta and Ontario.

And then they demand MORE MONEY, making it seem as though its their money, but in reality, they just want yet more money from Alberta and Ontario.

Clean up EI first.

Then clean up those bogus rural development schemes.

Clean up the patronage.

Then we'll talk about getting the have-not provinces back onto their feet.

[idealisttotheend]

TN:

You said you lived in SW Calagary. Ain't no oil in SW Calgary. Why should the good people of Leduc and in areas of Alberta that have oil pay for you through the large amount of oil revenues going into provincial coffers? I mean the CHR wastes money by renovating hospitals and then blowing them up (and the CHR is run by people appoited by patronage). So following your logic it would be wrong to share any of these royalties with you.

Don't like it? Well then move to Leduc, stop being subsidised by people who don't owe you anything and don't want to share. After all Leducians are tired of paying for your health care and education.

Makes sense n'est pas. Good Liberal logic?

[takeanumber]

Idealist:

It's my capital that is being used to extract that oil.

Moreover, the oil just doesn't pull itself out of the ground. There's work to be done in arranging financing, accounting, and making technological advantage.

Calgary pays more taxes out towards leduc than leduc pays out to Calgary, anyway.

So your logic works to bolster my case.

Somebody who pays 25 cents into a program and gets 1 dollar back at the expense of somebody else, and then tries to, meekly, justify it, clearly knows that what they're doing is wrong.

It's called EI, it's not called "Have-Not Status Quo Stabilization Rip-Off the System Fund"

Tell me, why is it right for somebody to get 1 dollar out for every 25 cents that goes in, year in and year out, for two generations?

[idealisttotheend]

It's my capital that is being used to extract that oil.

No, actually it's primary American capital with Bay street kicking in some through it's Toronto based banks. Even the very small amount that comes from Calgary is not "yours" it's whoever has the money. You have no claim to their money especially from your "liberal" viewpoint.

Moreover, the oil just doesn't pull itself out of the ground. There's work to be done in arranging financing, accounting, and making technological advantage.

Of which you've done done.

Calgary pays more taxes out towards leduc than leduc pays out to Calgary, anyway.

If that's true then why aren't you fighting to put a stop to it. In any case the argument is regarding oil royalties since any reasonable person would conclude that that is Alberta's sole advantage.

EI is a different argument (and I might agree with you there to some extent) we are arguing transfer payments between Ottawa and the provinces.

[takeanumber]

EI is a transfer payment.

It's all big one account.

It's not part of any CHST transfer, but it's a transfer nevertheless.

It's the worse form of transfer to, given the damage it does to wages and it retards mobility of labour.

-------------------------------------

So, if I got your arguement right, nobody in Calgary should earn any money from any of the they do for the oilpatch, buuuut, somebody in Quebec, who works 16 weeks and then gets paid for the last 36 through EI should earn money because....they're entitled to get money that they never earned.

I see.

I'm sure there's always some reason somebody can fish up for why they should benefit year after year after year after year after generation after generation from somebody else's labour.

What's yours?

[caesar]

take a number; quote:

"Yes, the rules are different for Quebec.

The number of weeks you have to work in order to qualify for EI varies from province to province.

In alberta, it's 45 weeks. In urban Quebec, it's 25 weeks (if I can remember correctly, it's around 25)."

Actually the amount of weeks to qualify and the number of weeks paid is supposedly decided by the rate of unemployment in that particular area.

[takeanumber]

Supposedly, based on a sliding scale, the higher the unemployment rate, the shorter the span of weeks.

EXCEPT: In special designated regions, in which, amazingly, the scale becomes far, far more generous.

These special regions are largely in Quebec and Newfoundland.

[Bakunin]

Decentralization to Quebec is about taking more money from Alberta and Ontario and spending it without federal guidelines.

Decentralization is about breaking down unequal program like your ei, or program that don't suite for the province needs. Because yes if we could decentralize maybe alberta could make its own ei program.

Transfer payments are about equalization of existing services.

Is about richer province getting less money from the federal government than poorer province, wich i don't agree completly even if you say all quebecers do...

Alberta sure as hell doesn't want to pay to put Quebecois kids through daycare when Alberta can't even afford to put its own kids in daycare.

Ontario sure as hell doesn't want to pay out equalization funds to New Brunswick, which were intended to be used for healthcare, but ended up going to lawn equipment.

Quebec sure as hell want to use its money to reinforce its socials programs but hey, we can'T because the federal like to use it to make sponsorship scandal, gun registry, to make corruption and to buy helicopters.

Yet...what they won't acknowledge, is that they get MOST of the money that they give Ottawa back, PLUS more money that comes from Alberta and Ontario.

Listen ok you must read this to understand my point of vue, ill try to explain my point of vue. im sure you will agree with me because i agree with you, the only problem is you dont understand what im trying to say.

First of all here is what happen in our federal system.

Their are provincial government who makes money from their citizen.

There is a federal government who makes money with taxes from all canadian citizen.

The federal government give's back 30 billons of the money it collect to others provinces. Richer provinces get less money, poorer gets more.

I took those numbers from statistic canada (And reconverted in 1millions citizen slice) so we can compare.

ipe: gets 3 billions for each 1millions citizen.

tn: 2,6 billions

n-b: 2 billions

new scotia: 1,6 billions

sask: get 1,6 billions

man: gets 1,6 billions

quebec: get 1,3 billions for each 1millions citizen.

bc: gets 1,2 billions fo each 1 millions

ontario: get 1 billions for each 1millions citizen.

alberta: gets 1 billions for each 1millions citizen.

So ontario and alberta doesnt give money to other provinces, they just receive less from the federal government.

actually quebec gets 0,3 billions more for each 1millions citizen.

so in other terms quebec gets 2 billions more than ontario in province transfer.

2 billions its about 3% of the quebec provincial budget. So don't worry, alberta and ontario aren't giving that much money to quebec and other province's, thei are getting maybe 2-3 % less of their budget.

the federal government have a ~ 200 billions budget.

~30 billions is givin back in transfer to the provinces.

What i would like when i say a dencentralized government is that if the federal government wants to give 10 billions for a childcare program but quebec doesnt want or alberta doesnt want, well they receive their part of the 10 billions to use it the way they want. Actually its already working like that for some federal program. Or what we could do is lower the federal taxes so the federal government would not have to do federal transfer because the province's would have enough money. that way we would eliminate inequallity.

But the real problem is that each province should also gets more money (it could be by lowering federal taxes) to finance healtcare. it could be done by eliminating stuff like gun registry, sponsorship program, the futur childcare program and all those federal failure or futur failure. Do you understand now that we don'T want to steal money from other provinces but a more efficient and flexible government for all provinces ?

For the ei program, i don't know this program but i never loved federal programs. I don't like injustice ok ?

But what i can say is that this program hasn't been made by a separatist since separatist has no chance to govern canada. It has probably been made by the Liberals. Actually, the Liberal federal government is really good at corruption and patronage. The Liberal party doesn'T represent quebec, in fact we could say that 40%-50% hate it so much that they want to leave canada. Our provincial government wheter he is sovregnist or federalist are government im really proud of because in general they spend their money well, and scandal are really not common. I don'T really know if im a sovregnist or not but what i really know is that i dont like corruption, i don't federal government way of working and i hate the liberals party even if i could be considered has a liberal or social democrate, in fact i would vote for anyone, even harper if its to get the liberal party out. Even if that mean 0 quebec minister. I would vote probably vote yes in a referendum to get rid of that government too. In fact you should maybe like sovregnist because they want the same thing as you . A society with no corruption and inequalities between the province and where the province have their word to say on how their money is used.

I hate to argue agressivly and i hope you have understood my point of vue and that you agree with me now.

[Guest eureka]

I think you have a little misunderstanding of your figures. Transfer payments cannot be compared in the way you do, particularly as they impact Quebec which opts out from certain federal programmes. Quebec receives more than 30% of Equalization payments ( the amount varies, of course) in most recent years. Ontarion and Alberta receive none. The total that Quebec receives is thus the amount of Equalization payments over and above anything Ontario and Alberta receive.

That sai, Idid not intend to get into this argument since I am totally in favour of the Equalization program, evn though Quebec is the major beneficiary. It seems to be forgotten that even Alberta received Equalization payments until its oil industry was developed. Equalization has been with us since Confederation although it was not called such and there was no national formula in the past.

It is time, though, for Quebec to quit complaining about money. Quebec does receive more than its share of federal moneys if population is the basis of comparison That it receives somewhat less than Newfoundland is entirely irrelevant. Quebec will never pull its weight in Confederation - as it did before the "Quiet Revolution" until it sheds the victim mentality and its oppressive laws that prohibit any major Canadian or International corporation from operating there.

[Bakunin]

I just said that quebec did opt out of federal program, and i dont see what is wrong with that. its totally fair. We are not gonna participate in the federal childcare program. we will receive our part of the money used for it.

your probably right they get more money if we count when we opt off federal program, but hey with this money we make our own program so it doesn't change anything at the end so it would be stupid to count it.

I understand its problably shocking to see that what we receive more than ontario is only 2 billions. There would be only 1 more calcul i would have like to do but i didn't find. Problably that ontario citizen pay more taxes to the federal because their citizen are richer but i guess its not totally our fault. Often we get paid less for the same job, like doctors, well like almost evrything i guess and we dont have car industry. On the other hand, we could work harder at school and work harder to get industries.

[Guest eureka]

Quebec gets the money when it opts out as would any other province that opted out if they were, like Quebec, concerned with political appearance rather than efficiency and the lowest cost. Quebec gets the percentage of transfer payments: it receives that amount which Ontario does not. Ontario also has to contribute to the Equalization. Its receipts are, therefore, lessenrd by the proportion that goes to Quebec.

When you shed the political posturing taught you from the cradle, you may have an epiphany,

The benefits of Confederation are economic also.

[Bakunin]

Other province can opt out also if they want to.

Is it always more effective ? i don't know but lets just watch what kind of childcare programs the liberal government will make and we will see.

[takeanumber]

Problably that ontario citizen pay more taxes to the federal because their citizen are richer but i guess its not totally our fault. Often we get paid less for the same job, like doctors, well like almost evrything i guess smile.gif and we dont have car industry. On the other hand, we could work harder at school and work harder to get industries.

Oh, so there's the justification.

I wish Alberta could 'opt out' of making equalization payments.

And 'opt out' of EI to keep money from flowing into deadbeat Quebec communities.

I don't see anything wrong with opting out.

But it's a two way street.

[Bakunin]

you see takeanumber, your for the decentralization just like us .

[takeanumber]

Not 'just like you'.

I'm of the opinion that if a province is a have-not province, they shouldn't be wasting money.

[Bakunin]

what do you mean by a have-not province

and what do you mean by wasting money ?

[takeanumber]

Have Not Province: Every province except Alta. and Ont.

Wasting Money: Patronage, rural development scams, job training scams designed to rip off EI, buying lawnmowers and ice machines instead of doctors and nurses with healthcare money...the list goes on and on.

[Bakunin]

actually our economy is growing evry years and in the next 5 combined years, to the place of getting 10 billions more than ontario, we will recveive 4,4 billions. the "Have not" province change over time.

Wasting Money: Patronage, rural development scams, job training scams designed to rip off EI, buying lawnmowers and ice machines instead of doctors and nurses with healthcare money...the list goes on and on.

The federal government do patronage, not the provincial. We don't waist our money, the liberal do with gun registry and other stuff like that.EI program is a federal juridiction. Proportionally, we have more doctors per habitant ratio than others provinces, we are already giving half of the provincial budget in healthcare. The crisis is present in alberta and ontario too. If you want to blame someone blame the liberals. Not the liberal victims.

[JWayne625]

Gas tax money to municipalities? The last I heard was that the feds are now in discussions with the Provinces on this matter. I know exactly what will happen with the money if it is given to the Provinces instead of directly to the municipalities, it will get eaten up in the bureaucracy of each particular Province and not one cent will make it to where it was intended to go.

Even if the money goes directly to the municipalities it needs to have laws in place that will not allow the Provincial Politician's the ability to claw it back when figuring out municipal grants to the municipalities. New Brunswick has already said they have not ruled out a claw-back.

[Black Dog]

Gas tax money to municipalities? The last I heard was that the feds are now in discussions with the Provinces on this matter. I know exactly what will happen with the money if it is given to the Provinces instead of directly to the municipalities, it will get eaten up in the bureaucracy of each particular Province and not one cent will make it to where it was intended to go.

Even if the money goes directly to the municipalities it needs to have laws in place that will not allow the Provincial Politician's the ability to claw it back when figuring out municipal grants to the municipalities. New Brunswick has already said they have not ruled out a claw-back.

Trouble is, municipalities are creatures of the provinces. Even if they wanted to, I doubt the feds would be able to do an end run around the provinces.

[JWayne625]

I don't necessarily think that it is a good idea to get rid of all Provinces, but it is definitely a good idea to amalgamate some into larger Provinces, thus saving $billions. At present we have all these Provinces, with their own sets of rules and laws, and yes their own bureaucracy's. For instance Ontario has 103 elected Members, with a population approaching 12,000,000, while New Brunswick has a population of slightly over 750,000 people yet we have a Legilature with 71 Members. This is far too much government for such a small population. No wonder we are having problems paying for healthcare and education.

If we combined all of Atlantic Canada together under one government this would get rid of at least 200 elected members, and all of the political hacks that follow them. Maybe we could then better afford the necessities like healthcare and education for our citizen, and be able to cut some taxes while we're at it, if we got rid of them and almalgamated with the other Atlantic Provinces, under one government.

Let's face it, we now have all of the Provinces doing their own things, at the expense of us all, and if we could cut some of this government we would all be better off. We will still need the civil servants to deliver all of these programs, but just not as many, and definitely not very many politicians jealously guarding their troughs, at our expense, and I'm very tired of paying people to tell us what we need.

[Guest eureka]

Could that argument not be used to support the idea of breaking up the larger provinces and having their powers reduced? They would then require lesser bureaucracies and money would be saved by the centraliztion of major areas under the central government.

What would we gain by that centralization and what would we lose? Do we not get down to the argument over unitary and federal regimes? What should be the balance in a federal system?

[JWayne625]

If we broke up the larger Provinces into smaller one's like the Atlantic Region of Canada we will just wind up with a whole lot more bureaucracies than we now have. That is a good part of the problem, we are top heavy with administration. What we need is leaner government not more of them.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Then we should eliminate the provincial level of government altogether. Have large county/municipal governments and one national government.

[maplesyrup]

Then we should eliminate the provincial level of government altogether. Have large county/municipal governments and one national government.

I agree that it is time for Canadians to consider abolishing our provinces and territories..

The provinces are a huge drain financially and are constantly tearing away at national unity.

The have outlived their usefulness.

Of course this would involve a new constitution for Canada, but so what? We live in a changing world, eh!