Are you anti USA or anti Bush?

[Big Blue Machine]

I'm a believer in good relations with the US. Liking or disliking the Americans is irrelevant. Some are great people, like that girl I met when I was skiing. Some are just jerks. Canada is the same. Some Canadians are great and some are bad. I admit we think different than the Americans

In 1988, the Liberals and NDP said we would lose our culture. What culture do we have in Ontario? When Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, did they lose their culture to the rest of Canada? Of course not. It's silly to say we will lose our culture to the US.

I hated Jack Layton during the debates, complaining so loudily about the Star Wars. I wanted to yell at him, "The fact of the matter is, Canada should maintain good relations. Complaining about the Star Wars system will not win you any friends in the Bush Adminstrition. If you had a problem with it, you would say it quietly".

Besides the NDP will never win a government on the federal level.

[caesar]

We do not have to say anything quietly. Canadians are too meek and humble as is particularly in regard to the USA. Bush has shown nothing but disdain for Canada since taking office. Why should we be quiet when he is pulling stunts that will endanger us as well as the USA.

Yes, Americans are a mix of good and bad as are we. Many are our friends and relatives. When the USA returns to an administration that shows respect to Canada and Canadians; perhaps then we can return that respect.

[Protest]

Ignorant to only have 2 choices in a 3d world.

Anti-Bush

Anti-US Citizen

Anti-US Government Policy

I'm Anti US Government Policy!

[April]

Since I am American, I will have to go for the

ANTI~BUSH

[Big Blue Machine]

Canada got alot well when we had the same governments. Ex, Clinton and Chretien, Mulroney and Reagen, Carter and Trudeau, Kennedy V Pearson.

[I miss Reagan]

Pro-Bush, Anti-Clinton

Surprising huh?

[caesar]

Nope just dumb

[udawg]

You know... when I see these arguments about Canada/US relations... even the name of this board... I feel kind of helpless. What Canada needs is a bargaining chip... something we can threaten the US with that they can't ignore, so they have to concede to at least SOME of our wishes. So many things it would be helpful for... beef ban... softwood lumber... Star Wars... Iraq...

Anybody have any ideas as to what we have that the US can't get anywhere else? An essential service or product, that realistically we could cut off for a few days or weeks until they gave in on something?

[caesar]

Oh we have much that they would suffer for if stopped. Power, oil, and natural gas. However thanks to Mulroney, seemingly, we cannot legally refuse to sell to them even in defense of our environment. We are even being sued for refusing to sell water?????

I believe to do anything legally; we must opt out of dree trade. I would be in favour of that option.\

It seems our government and large companies like to buy from other countries that use cheaper labour and do not support our local workers.

The BC government is attempting to destroy unions; lower the age of working children to 14 (any job a parent okays) with no government protection. They seem intent to lower our working standards and pay to that of third world countries.

[udawg]

Yes caesar, it does increasingly seem as though free trade has drawn us so close to the US that we no longer have any maneouvering room in any negotiations.

I'm not one of those people afraid that we'll completely lose our sovereignty, either politically or culurally, because of close ties to the US, but I definitely agree that it hinders our movement as an individual nation.

[Guest eureka]

We also have a military that has a winning history. Could we not threaten to invade and burn down the White House once again if they do not fall into line?

Seriously, I am anti-Bush and snti US policy, both domestic and international

Amongst Bush's accomplishments was the failure to be accepted into Law School at the University of Texas. How can anyone be supportive of a President with the proven inability to understand what is goiing on at home and ovefrseas. He has left a trail of economic disaster behind him in his personal interests, in his stint as a State Governor and now as President.

I am not to thrilled with the policies of his predecessors either. None, however, have been quite so disastrous and incompetent. Reagan might have been a close second, though but he had a quality that made Americans feel optimistic about themselves and the future (after he was gone). Bush has no redeeming talents.

[caesar]

Quote: "We also have a military that has a winning history"

______________________________________________Unfortunately, that is ancient history. Our militar has deteriorated and we couldn't make it across the border on a surprise attack with our whole military there.

It was good for a chuckle, though

[Tawasakm]

Heres my two cents. I'm anti-bush not anti-usa.

I think that what we are seeing is the polarising effect of a war time mentality. Since the USA has gone to war, and placed the lives of it's soldiers at risk, there is a higher stake in government policy and a higher stake in criticising it.

It seems natural enough that criticism from foreign sources in such a time can be easily miscontrued as anti-usa instead of being merely anti-bush.

When Bush-bashing occured prior to September 11 was it as likely to be interpreted as an anti-usa sentiment? I don't think so.

I hope that discussion like this can help to facilitate greater discrimination between criticism of government and criticism of nation.

[KrustyKidd]

Anybody have any ideas as to what we have that the US can't get anywhere else? An essential service or product, that realistically we could cut off for a few days or weeks until they gave in on something?

The chocolate bars they make at the Hershey plant in Smith Falls Ontario. We could shut it down and stop shipping the bars south. Millions of US kids would suffer and we would show those arrogant bastards who is in charge.

Of course, you put hundreds of people out of work on both sides of the border as well as the truckers moving the frieght, send a mutual fund or two nosediving along with a few RRSPs, but anything to fulfil this little fantasy. On the plus side, the guys that make the wrappers in North Carolina would be out of work too. Tee Hee.

Really though, our government deals with another government. It doesn't come down to whether we like them or they like us, it's all mutually benificial. Their goods come north and many only have a widget welded onto them and then are returned for finishing work and sale abroad. They bring us prosperity and we give them breaks on wages that they would have to pay US workers. If you do find this magical comodity I would be very interested to see what it was. If it is oil, then they would simply not buy it and start using their own or find it someplace else. If it is power, they will build more plants. We are by no means the end all as Mexico is just as close. They also have their little problems with the US same as us. Are they turning down jobs and dollars for nationalistic pride? Now there is an idea.! Make this plan with Mexico and you might have something. Got to be careful though, if you pirce this service or whatever too high they will find an overseas producer for it then a lot of Canadaians are out of work and the tax base decreases. (yours goes up)

I think that what we are seeing is the polarising effect of a war time mentality. Since the USA has gone to war, and placed the lives of it's soldiers at risk, there is a higher stake in government policy and a higher stake in criticising it.

Not sure what you mean. I spend most of my time in the US and although everybody knows there is a war going on, nobody is captivated by it to the point where is enters everyday disicussion. Did you mean our criticising them?

[Argus]

We do not have to say anything quietly.  Canadians are too meek and humble as is particularly in regard to the USA.  Bush has shown nothing but disdain for Canada since taking office.  Why should we be quiet when he is pulling stunts that will endanger us as well as the USA.

Canada is meek and humble with everyone, be it the US, Syria, Iran, or Bongo-Wongo. Bush hasn't shown "disdain" for Canada. Canada is simply, by and large, irrelevent to him. We are neither helpful nor hurtful, so he pays us little attention. And that irks you? Why should it?

As for "stunts" that hurt Canada, I don't believe we've been very quiet about their continued beef import ban or the softwood lumber dispute. Those are the only ones I can think of. Both are driven by national politics, down south, though, and are unlikely to be changed in an election year.

[Argus]

Ignorant to only have 2 choices in a 3d world.

Anti-Bush

Anti-US Citizen

Anti-US Government Policy

I'm Anti US Government Policy!

I don't have much respect for Bush - amost none, to be honest. I think he's a big phony with little to recommend him.

I am against some aspects of US policy, but then, I'm against some aspects of ours, too. I'm not against the war in Iraq, neccesarily, but against how it was and is being run.

I admire the US, though not without reservations.

[KrustyKidd]

I don't have much respect for Bush - amost none, to be honest. I think he's a big phony with little to recommend him.

I am against some aspects of US policy, but then, I'm against some aspects of ours, too. I'm not against the war in Iraq, neccesarily, but against how it was and is being run.

I admire the US, though not without reservations.

Argus, i go on about five or so forums and the war of course is a hot topic as is our relationship with the US. I have to tell you that what you have posted there is the most balanced view of the situation I have read in a long time. It displays reason with no rhetoric and states your view without rant. I don't agree with much of it but I know you speak from your mind, not your emotion, very refreshing for a change in a political oposite.

[Tawasakm]

Dear KrustyKidd,

Not sure what you mean. I spend most of my time in the US and although everybody knows there is a war going on, nobody is captivated by it to the point where is enters everyday disicussion. Did you mean our criticising them?

I'm sorry it's taken me this long to reply but my work often has unexpected extra hours.

I meant that in a wartime situation US citizens would be more likely to perceive criticism of George Bush and/or government policy as a criticism of the soldiers risking their lives and, by extension, of the US itself. I don't feel that prior to 9/11 criticism of Bush/policies would have been perceived in that same way.

Or put another way the question of this topic becomes necessary as a result of the war etc. I would like to think we are all reaching a point where the separate issues are easily discussed without bleeding into each other.

[caesar]

Quote

I meant that in a wartime situation US citizens would be more likely to perceive criticism of George Bush and/or government policy as a criticism of the soldiers risking their lives

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But it was not a war; none was declared

It is not a criticism of those soldiers who are risking their lives

It is a criticism of risking those lives for an unjust cause.

It is one thing to ask these young people to risk their lives and futures defending one's country;

It is reprehensible to ask these same young people to take those risks over the questionable reasons for this debacle in Iraq.

Let's not forget the many who come home mentally and physically challenged for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps, even another Timothy McVeigh.

[Tawasakm]

I wasn't posting an oponion over the legalities of the war. Nor was I making a judgement in regards to government policy. Nor was I implying that people were criticising the soldiers.

I am against the war in Iraq. It's a sideline to the real battle that I think the US should be fighting.

I was making the point that foreign criticism could be easily misconstrued (as criticism of soldiers and nation etc) and that can hamper and/or polarise debate.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

On a sideline I have read alot of what KrustyKidd has written regarding the legalities of the war in Iraq so I think I'll clarify my above statement: I object to the war in Iraq on moral grounds (pre-emptive warfare etc) and from a tactical viewpoint (resources should be aligned differently - toward Osama for a start) but not from a legal viewpoint. His arguments were pretty good.

[Guest eureka]

I am curious to know where these justifications - in a legal sense - of the attack on Iraq can be found. I have yet to see or hear of any. Even international jurists have said that there is no legal ground. Even American legal opinion, outside of the "War Room" seems to say the same according to almost everything I have read.

[dmann]

bush is pituatary retard.

i can't imagine how bad things will get if he's allowed to run things for another 4 years

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new political message board

http://hotseatforums.com

[Stoker]

I am curious to know where these justifications - in a legal sense - of the attack on Iraq can be found. I have yet to see or hear of any. Even international jurists have said that there is no legal ground. Even American legal opinion, outside of the "War Room" seems to say the same according to almost everything I have read.

Have you read 1441 or any of the other UN mandates that were passed after the first Gulf War?

[Stoker]

And because I'm a nice guy..........here is some late night reading for yeah:

RESOLUTION 686

RESOLUTION 688

and Resolution 1441

[Slavik44]

And because I'm a nice guy..........here is some late night reading for yeah:

RESOLUTION 686

RESOLUTION 688

and Resolution 1441

On November 8, 2002, the UN passed Resolution 1441 urging Iraq to disarm or face "serious consequences". The resolution passed with a 15 to 0 vote, supported by Russia, China and France, and Arab countries like Syria. This gave this resolution wider support than even the 1992 Gulf War resolution. Although the Iraqi parliament voted against honoring the UN resolution, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein agreed to honor it.

In other words your aformentiond bills all becoem null, as 1441 was basically a condemnation of iraq for not sumbitting itself to previous resulutions however it complied with resolution 1441.

and because I am such a nice guy

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/