Jack Weber Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 I know you're not. Nor am I. In fact, I don't like the idea of people being "Marxists," or (worse) "Randians," or what have you; such a paradigm demands that you squeeze everything into a preconceived box, trying to mesh old and new, and wonder what the Master would think about it all.... This isn't the way it's done in the hard sciences, and they would at least have slightly better cause. In the social sciences, as in the realm of Political Economy, there are no objectivities, or not of great and insightful note. A market economy, with regulatory factors, a social safety net, and organs for protecting the rights of workers and the poor. That seems the best way yet devised, to my knowledge. I haven't seen a better system of overall wealth creation,however,many neoliberal types look to China as the new model for economic growth.That is to say,Authoritarian Capitalism ( ie. the modern face of Fascism) is the way to prosperity... Ironic,isn't it,that those who invoke "personal freedom" as the fall back answer for almost all things "Capitalism" look to freedom stifling authoritarian regimes for guidance on how to run a Capitalistic economy... In otherwords,all things authoritarian in the political right (China is a crypto-Fascist entity now,NOT a Leftist entity!) is OK so long as the profitability factor is maintained... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Marx and Engels forgot one thing in all their idealism...The inherent capacity for mankind to be inherently greedy and mankinds inherent lust for power and control.By the way,it's the same thing the Free Marketeers seem to overlook,as well... It's the very failing that makes both extremes unworkable... It's no surprise they would overlook what they couldn't see. The only thing I've seen with any potential to provide relief from the abuse of power and wealth is sousveillance or inverse surveillance. a subset of sousveillance with a particular emphasis on the "watchful vigilance from underneath"...and recordings of authority figures and their actions. Knowing they're being watched and judged should change their behaviour, so long as there are real consequences. Resigning as they simply do in most cases just doesn't cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 It's interesting that a person can't criticize capitalism without having to throw out a disclaimer saying, "I don't want people to think I'm Marxist." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) It's interesting that a person can't criticize capitalism without having to throw out a disclaimer saying, "I don't want people to think I'm Marxist." I agree... And goes to the issue of the corporate media and how that neoliberal economic plan is kept alive... If someone questions the efficacy of unfettered capitalism they must be: 1.A Luddite 2.An Anarchist 3.A subversive 4.A Marxist I'm none of those things.At no time has anyone on this thread,that I can see,been clambering for a top down,centralized,authoritarian Leftist state... Of course,very few of the "Freedom Loving" free marketeers have showed up to refute anything,so who knows??? Edited May 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 A market economy, with regulatory factors, a social safety net, and organs for protecting the rights of workers and the poor. That seems the best way yet devised, to my knowledge. A market economy, with regulatory factors, a social safety net, and organs for protecting the rights of workers and the poor. That seems the best way yet devised, to my knowledge. I tend to agree, but the problem is that puzzle has been solved. These social democracies have been turned into engines of theft and fraud run by the same bunch of folks that would in charge in the absense of social democracy. I dont think there IS such thing as a good system that will just keep working. Societies need to constantly reinvent themselves and even a good system will get highjacked eventually. Thats the problem with social democracies and why they are all in pretty much the same boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 A market economy, with regulatory factors, a social safety net, and organs for protecting the rights of workers and the poor. That seems the best way yet devised, to my knowledge. I tend to agree, but the problem is that puzzle has been solved. These social democracies have been turned into engines of theft and fraud run by the same bunch of folks that would in charge in the absense of social democracy. I dont think there IS such thing as a good system that will just keep working. Societies need to constantly reinvent themselves and even a good system will get highjacked eventually. Thats the problem with social democracies and why they are all in pretty much the same boat. The fault for social democracies being turned into engines of theft and fraud lies with us alone.We are the ones who have let our power as a populous be slowly and systematically taken away from us by the political class who is propped up ( and does the propping up of) by the financial/business class. Our lack of vigilence and complacency has allowed for this seperation from those that legislate and those who elect.We have allowed our legislative bodies to be infected and hi-jacked by money and it's no wonder that those who get essentially bought off do the bidding of those who pay for that access... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 The fault for social democracies being turned into engines of theft and fraud lies with us alone.We are the ones who have let our power as a populous be slowly and systematically taken away from us by the political class who is propped up ( and does the propping up of) by the financial/business class. Our lack of vigilence and complacency has allowed for this seperation from those that legislate and those who elect.We have allowed our legislative bodies to be infected and hi-jacked by money and it's no wonder that those who get essentially bought off do the bidding of those who pay for that access... Oh I agree with all that yeah. But I see us as part of the system... And I think we are nearing one of those times where we have to reinvent ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckistani Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Oh I agree with all that yeah. But I see us as part of the system... And I think we are nearing one of those times where we have to reinvent ourselves. I just hope it doesn't hurt too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I just hope it doesn't hurt too much. I hope it hurts the 1% a lot! Otherwise we've accomplished nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Oh I agree with all that yeah. But I see us as part of the system... And I think we are nearing one of those times where we have to reinvent ourselves. I agree...But there are signs on the wall about how that reinvention will go... We see the Freedom loving free marketeers increasingly looking to China and it's Authoritarian Capitalism( see the modern face of Fascism)as it's model for stability.The sytem has been allowed to be constructed by these people.They will do whatever they need to do to keep the power within society that they have... People should realize this...That Authortiarian Capitalism is the new model (see old model) for the protection of "personal freedom".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I agree...But there are signs on the wall about how that reinvention will go... We see the Freedom loving free marketeers increasingly looking to China and it's Authoritarian Capitalism( see the modern face of Fascism)as it's model for stability.The sytem has been allowed to be constructed by these people.They will do whatever they need to do to keep the power within society that they have... People should realize this...That Authortiarian Capitalism is the new model (see old model) for the protection of "personal freedom".... capitalism is evil no doubt about it. the little guy like me is frowned upon by capitalists thats why i support the brave protesters in quebec. they are fighting for all us little guys who have been kicked around because we werent born with a silver spoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 capitalism is evil no doubt about it. the little guy like me is frowned upon by capitalists thats why i support the brave protesters in quebec. they are fighting for all us little guys who have been kicked around because we werent born with a silver spoon. Capitalism isn't "evil"...It is an extreme just like Marxism and Fascism are an extreme...In their extreme states they are all evil... Capitalism ,in a controlled environment,works quite well.There's lots of recent historical evidence for this that irrefutable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Capitalism isn't "evil"...It is an extreme just like Marxism and Fascism are an extreme...In their extreme states they are all evil... Capitalism ,in a controlled environment,works quite well.There's lots of recent historical evidence for this that irrefutable. with due respect you are wrong. capitalism like what is going on in canada right now is hurting many people. all people care about are the tarsands that are causing global warming which is destroying our planet all in the name of the capitalism that you so much admire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 with due respect you are wrong. capitalism like what is going on in canada right now is hurting many people. all people care about are the tarsands that are causing global warming which is destroying our planet all in the name of the capitalism that you so much admire. I suggest you read what I've previously talked about.Capitalism,IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT,works quite well... You need only look at the Post War Social Contract from approx. 1945 to approx. 1979 to see how the general standard of living rose through that period... The problem is that since that time,we have seen a systematic whittling away of that social contract under the guise of "personal freedom" through things like tax cuts (mostly coporate tax cuts and tax cuts for those who least require a tax cut!) and allowing an accendancy of a veritable "corporatocracy" that essentially pays for it's ostensibly "freely" elected legislative partners... This has allowed for an "unfettering" of Capitalism and allowed the ugly side of Capitalism to show itself... It should be noted that if we had allowed the other side to gain unnecessary strength,namely Socialism,we would have just as bad societal problems that would have equally nightmarish consequences... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I suggest you read what I've previously talked about.Capitalism,IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT,works quite well... You need only look at the Post War Social Contract from approx. 1945 to approx. 1979 to see how the general standard of living rose through that period... The problem is that since that time,we have seen a systematic whittling away of that social contract under the guise of "personal freedom" through things like tax cuts (mostly coporate tax cuts and tax cuts for those who least require a tax cut!) and allowing an accendancy of a veritable "corporatocracy" that essentially pays for it's ostensibly "freely" elected legislative partners... This has allowed for an "unfettering" of Capitalism and allowed the ugly side of Capitalism to show itself... It should be noted that if we had allowed the other side to gain unnecessary strength,namely Socialism,we would have just as bad societal problems that would have equally nightmarish consequences... i see you have no clue about history if you think socialism is bad. i have a few university profs who would wipe the floor with you in an argument about the merits of true socialism. i'll test you jack. what is your definition of social justice? your answer will tell me wheter or not you are capable of debating the issue intelligently or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) i see you have no clue about history if you think socialism is bad. i have a few university profs who would wipe the floor with you in an argument about the merits of true socialism. i'll test you jack. what is your definition of social justice? your answer will tell me wheter or not you are capable of debating the issue intelligently or not. Well...Define "Social Justice"? And if you have "no clue about history",why are you entertaining this arguement? Edited May 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Well...Define "Social Justice"? And if you have "no clue about history",why are you entertaining this arguement? i asked you to define it. if you cant no problem. just dont pretend to be an expert on the subject. i take classes on sj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Well...Define "Social Justice"? And if you have "no clue about history",why are you entertaining this arguement? you seem like a fox news fan. too bad you are brainwashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 i asked you to define it. if you cant no problem. just dont pretend to be an expert on the subject. i take classes on sj. The reason that I ask is because 'social justice" means different things to different people..I'm happy you take classes on the subject,however,that doesn't make you an expert... If you ask a free marketeer,many will say that "the market" will sort all things out...Others may say that "the state" needs to intervene,on occasssion, to re-balance thngs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 The reason that I ask is because 'social justice" means different things to different people..I'm happy you take classes on the subject,however,that doesn't make you an expert... If you ask a free marketeer,many will say that "the market" will sort all things out...Others may say that "the state" needs to intervene,on occasssion, to re-balance thngs... the state needs to be in control of 95%. otherwise you have exploitation which is happening now. maybe you like that kinda thing. but i dont. i llok after my fellow citizens who werent born with the silverspoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 the state needs to be in control of 95%. otherwise you have exploitation which is happening now. maybe you like that kinda thing. but i dont. i llok after my fellow citizens who werent born with the silverspoon. I have no interest in elitism,but,I take from this you are a huge fan of Authoritarian Leftism under the guise of "sticking up for the little guy"? Um...Yeah...History tells us that turned out well for the little guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I have no interest in elitism,but,I take from this you are a huge fan of Authoritarian Leftism under the guise of "sticking up for the little guy"? Um...Yeah...History tells us that turned out well for the little guy... so your a harperite. typical. we owe a lot of gratitude to the student protesters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 so your a harperite. typical. we owe a lot of gratitude to the student protesters. Not exactly... Define my "Harperism",if you please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Not exactly... Define my "Harperism",if you please? your against china. the last beackon of hope. so your a mulcair fan then? maybe you and me are more alike than i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 your against china. the last beackon of hope. so your a mulcair fan then? maybe you and me are more alike than i think. \ Being against China isn't abad thing..The very thing that allows you to speak out wouldn't be allowed in China... China is no beacon of hope..It's nothing but authoritarian crap dressed up as "freedom"... At the moment,I'm ambivalent about Mr. Mulcair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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