The GOP: The Party of pain, punishment, misery, and death

[Argus]

Then why have more emigres chosen America over Canada? Still counting: 312,000,000 > 34,000,000.

Soooo, let me see if I've got this down right. Your answer to why the GOP isn't the party of pain, punishment, misery and death is that the US has more immigrants?

Trying to figure out your "logic" here.

[Argus]

Good enough for "rich" Canadians not willing to settle for less than that (Chretien, Williams, Stronach).

Indeed. The U.S. system is very good for rich people of all kinds.

Not so good for ordinary people, of course, but who cares about them anyway...

[bush_cheney2004]

Soooo, let me see if I've got this down right. Your answer to why the GOP isn't the party of pain, punishment, misery and death is that the US has more immigrants?

That was another tangent, but yes, why not? America's Republican party has been around since 1854 as part of the abolitionist movement, and what do we find with respect to US immigration compared to Canada since that time? I leave the math and to you.

312,000,000 > 34,000,000

Trying to figure out your "logic" here.

Just try to think a little bit harder...but don't hurt yourself.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed. The U.S. system is very good for rich people of all kinds.

It's also very good for insured people from all economic strata. Even non-rich people from Canada!

[Argus]

This is where you are wrong, Argus. I've already said it once and I'll say it again. Americans have different ideas of what they want. They don't have a plan in mind that the "wealthy elite" say "no" to. I'll repeat it again. Many have great health coverage through their employer.

You think your employer gives you that for free? There are two ways to look at employer paid health care plans. One is they're a drag on that employer, vastly increasing their cost of doing business and making it more difficult to compete internationally. Two is that they tie you to that employer, making the threat of leaving even more difficult (which is what employers like).

They don't want a "downgrade" from what they have.

Most employer health care plans are not up to par with what Canada has - and Canada's is imperfect.

Canadians can go to any health care provider, any doctor, any hospital. There is no limit on payout, ever. No one is ever turned down for coverage. Ever. And we can move from employer to employer without losing it. And when a doctor wants to do something he doesn't have to call the insurance people a thousand miles away to get permission. He isn't going to be overruled by a clerk who wants him to do it another way because it's cheaper.

And to repeat, we're far from the best, and we're way cheaper than your systems. If we paid as much per person as you do we'd basically have no problems with wait times, and we'd still have every person in the country covered.

The middle class are concerned about how much taxes would be raised and what they would be getting in return. You do pay taxes, and those taxes, if not going to the government, could go towards purchasing health insurance, which is what some people do.

You are aware that taxes pay for almost all health care in the US right now, right? In addition to paying for the poor through medicaid, the elderly through medicare and the military and veterans, your employers health care costs wind up being deducted from taxes, as do private payments by individuals, so in essence, your employer provided or private health care is also being paid by taxes! The difference is that with the plethora of insurance companies and their often arcane rules, there is massive inefficiencies leading to a huge administrative costs for all concerned. Also, there has to be big profits added on to the cost so these corporations - which do NOTHING to help your health - can pay their shareholders. You pay far more than anyone else in the world, so why are you content that you have a higher infant mortality rate, lower age expectation, and that you have worse, or at best, even odds of survival for various ailments to those who pay less than you?

[Argus]

Let's just say we don't want to destroy a great system to create a mediocre one, just for the sake of change.

Why do you suppose it is that NO ONE on the planet earth but you thinks your system is 'great'?

[bush_cheney2004]

.... You pay far more than anyone else in the world, so why are you content that you have a higher infant mortality rate, lower age expectation, and that you have worse, or at best, even odds of survival for various ailments to those who pay less than you?

Actually, the US ranks first in several OECD metrics while Canada ranks first in none....maybe that's why.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why do you suppose it is that NO ONE on the planet earth but you thinks your system is 'great'?

Because our system is not for the entire planet? Just a guess....

[Guest American Woman]

Why do you suppose it is that NO ONE on the planet earth but you thinks your system is 'great'?

The quality and availability of health care services is great; I think that's what he was referring to, and many people on the planet think so - which is why so many foreigners come to the U.S. for their health care needs.

[bush_cheney2004]

The quality and availability of health care services is great; I think that's what he was referring to, and many people on the planet think so - which is why so many foreigners come to the U.S. for their health care needs.

They sure do...when their asses are on the line, "no one on the entire planet" thinks they should go to Winnipeg for world class health care.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't doubt that people go to Canada for health care too; I'm not telling them their health care is crap the way so many Canadians tell us ours is. I'm just pointing out that there are problems within their system, and sometimes they turn to the U.S. as a solution to their problems. The Canadian government doesn't deny it. Who would the U.S. turn to if we got to the point where we were lacking in services/facilities because of lack of revenue?

There wouldn't be a 'safety net' for us, so we have to make sure any national health care option wouldn't end up lowering the standard of our present health care services. What we have is great. That everyone doesn't have "free" access to it doesn't mean that the health care we provide isn't great. It's among the best in the world. People come from all over the world, and they aren't coming because it's cheaper than what they can get at home/elsewhere.

So I get tired of the claims some Canadians make about how crappy our health care is, and how no one in the world thinks it's great. It's just not true. I get tired of being told what Americans want but aren't getting because of the cold-hearted American politicians, or because Americans in general are cold-hearted and don't care about anyone except themselves, or because of the evil rich. I get tired of hearing about how in cold-hearted America the dying are kicked out of hospitals to die in the streets. I get tired of being told only the rich enjoy the benefit of our health services. I also get tired of being told it's the #1 issue in America, among voters on election day, when it's not.

None of it is true.

[cybercoma]

Inefficient and inaccessible are the criticisms. No one said the care that's available there is crap.

[bush_cheney2004]

So I get tired of the claims some Canadians make....

...None of it is true.

Well I suspect that particularly in the case of some Canadians, the issue involves the much broader narrative of anti-American sentiment as not only a way to define a separate (!American) identity, but to rationalize their own system's shortcomings in the face of obvious gaps. So we read ad nauseum about "American style (blank)", with the blank to be filled in by whatever domestic political issue happens to be in play (prisons, drug laws, gun laws, etc.).

Yes, there are millions of Americans without ready access to health care because of cost/insurance barriers, but that doesn't mean the whole country should accept mediocrity for universal care. Canada's CHA decision was largely political in nature and not without internal conflict and push back, despite efforts here to pretend it was all smooth sailing.

Personally, I have a constitutional problem with the state or citizens demanding the services or products from individual health care providers on terms that undermine individual liberties. Or as I have oft stated, health care is not a right, not even in Canada.

[jbg]

You have 1/8 of 1% specifically seeking healthcare in the United States and it's unclear how many of those went to the US due to lack of services in Canada. It's safe to assume that it's not all of them It could be none of them for all that we know.

I know someone from Toronto who had to schedule a pacemaker battery replacement in the U.S. since he could not get an appointment in Canada. Luckily, a few days before he was mechanically slated to die he got his appointment.

[Argus]

The quality and availability of health care services is great; I think that's what he was referring to, and many people on the planet think so - which is why so many foreigners come to the U.S. for their health care needs.

Many? Quantify that. Many come to France for their health care needs too. Many come to the UK to Sweden, to Canada to Mexico for their health care needs.

And many Americans go elsewhere to get their health care needs attended to. Hell, we've always had a problem with Americans managing to obtain phony Canadian Id so they can use our national health care system. Mexico has lots of Americans going there for health care.

I've seen shows where American doctors roll into some depressed area of the United States as if they were going to the third world, and masses of people line up for days, just like in third world countries, to get to see a doctor, a dentist or an ophthalmologist. Many have ongoing issues that have been ignored for months, even years, because they couldn't afford a doctor. You ought to be ashamed that such things happen in your country. They don't happen in any other western nation.

[Argus]

I don't doubt that people go to Canada for health care too; I'm not telling them their health care is crap the way so many Canadians tell us ours is.

Everyone on the planet tells you your health care system is crap. Many Americans do, too. Just ask Roger Moore.

So I get tired of the claims some Canadians make about how crappy our health care is, and how no one in the world thinks it's great. It's just not true.

There speaks the "I got mine" voice. All you're saying is that your particular health care is okay, and that you don't give good goddam about the fact that other Americans can't obtain health care.

Good Christian woman that you are.

[Argus]

Well I suspect that particularly in the case of some Canadians, the issue involves the much broader narrative of anti-American sentiment

In my case, it's not 'anti-American', it's 'anti-stupid'. I heartily dislike gross stupidity. I dislike gross inefficiency. And people blathering away about how their very clearly, very obviously stupid system is actually great, despite all evidence to the contrary, just make my eyes roll.

[Guest American Woman]

Inefficient and inaccessible are the criticisms. No one said the care that's available there is crap.

In ccase you're having trouble reading between the lines, your system is crap and nobody in their right mind from Canada goes there specifically to get care.

[Argus]

I know someone from Toronto who had to schedule a pacemaker battery replacement in the U.S. since he could not get an appointment in Canada. Luckily, a few days before he was mechanically slated to die he got his appointment.

I don't buy that for a moment. If someone was going to lose their battery in a few days their doctor, ANY doctor, would make damned sure it was replaced. I can't imagine any combination of circumstances where anyone but a retarded moron would have any difficulty getting the attention of the people here about an issue that serious. You walk into a hospital ER and you tell them. What do you think they're going to do? Just let you die?

[Argus]

Because our system is not for the entire planet? Just a guess....

No, because in other countries if you pay the highest price you expect to get more than the 37th best product.

[Guest American Woman]

Everyone on the planet tells you your health care system is crap. Many Americans do, too. Just ask Roger Moore.

Roger Moore? James Bond?? What has he said, and why should I care?

There speaks the "I got mine" voice. All you're saying is that your particular health care is okay, and that you don't give good goddam about the fact that other Americans can't obtain health care.

Good Christian woman that you are.

I don't believe I've ever made any claims about my religion/Christianity.

But fyi, I have stated that I don't have health coverage; so if you don't feel like an ass over your ugly accusation, you most certainly should.

[Argus]

But fyi, I have stated that I don't have health coverage; so if you don't feel like an ass over your ugly accusation, you most certainly should.

Nope. It was a reasonable assumption, since why else would any sane person support the present system?

I suppose I didn't give enough thought to how weak minds exposed to propaganda can embrace ideological beliefs and positions that are actually detrimental to their own best interests. Ie, the majority of the Tea Party idiots.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nope. It was a reasonable assumption, since why else would any sane person support the present system?

LOL! Makes one wonder what else you are always wrong about.

I suppose I didn't give enough thought to how weak minds exposed to propaganda can embrace ideological beliefs and positions that are actually detrimental to their own best interests. Ie, the majority of the Tea Party idiots.

...or government employees.

[Guest American Woman]

Nope. It was a reasonable assumption, since why else would any sane person support the present system?

I suppose I didn't give enough thought to how weak minds exposed to propaganda can embrace ideological beliefs and positions that are actually detrimental to their own best interests. Ie, the majority of the Tea Party idiots.

What you clearly "didn't give enough thought to" is what I've posted; if, in fact, you've even read a word I said before making your "reasonable assumption." Your ignorant response would indicate otherwise.

[eyeball]

I know someone from Toronto who had to schedule a pacemaker battery replacement in the U.S. since he could not get an appointment in Canada. Luckily, a few days before he was mechanically slated to die he got his appointment.

C'mon, do you really expect us to believe this pile of crap?