The TTC thread

[guyser]

Source?

Would be nice. Some of the mill rates may be quite larger , but the homes are so much cheaper they wind up paying far less

Toronto has the highest taxes paid in the country and he wants to double them....yea right.

[guyser]

You were justifing that The rest of Ontario should pay because TO makes more money thus pays more taxes argument... Your argument of Ontario pay for TO since to pays more taxes for being richer is the same argument Albertan seperatist make about equalization, etc..

Consider this....you have it entirely wrong and not what I said.

TO pays...and pays, and the excess of what is paid benefits the rest of the province. All good, TO is the engine that drives this province and thus shoulders the large burden.

But if TO held onto its money, or the money was spent in TO for transit improvements, for one year, we would be fine. The rest of the province.....not so much.

Toronto pays the highest taxes in the country. Just thought I would remind you.

[Boges]

Consider this....you have it entirely wrong and not what I said.

TO pays...and pays, and the excess of what is paid benefits the rest of the province. All good, TO is the engine that drives this province and thus shoulders the large burden.

But if TO held onto its money, or the money was spent in TO for transit improvements, for one year, we would be fine. The rest of the province.....not so much.

Toronto pays the highest taxes in the country. Just thought I would remind you.

Some Ontario communities would suffer, but I'd argue that many would be just fine if they could keep their share of a VAT and income taxes.

But are gauging income taxes on where you work or where you live?

Remember people may make their money in Toronto (income taxes) but they pay their property taxes and pay for much of their goods and services where they live outside of Toronto.

Lots of money leaves Toronto simply because people can't or won't pay $400,000 plus for a 500 sq ft box.

Also a lot of money comes into Toronto because of this Condo Boom where people that were raised in the burbs and work in the burbs choose to live in a condo downtown. The highways leaving Toronto are almost as busy in the morning as the highway coming in.

It wasn't long ago Greater Toronto Communities had to make payments to Toronto to help them pay for social services. Toronto has lots of rich people, but it also has a lot of very poor people too.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[DFCaper]

Would be nice. Some of the mill rates may be quite larger , but the homes are so much cheaper they wind up paying far less

Toronto has the highest taxes paid in the country and he wants to double them....yea right.

TO residents pay some of the highest taxes as a result of having the highest incomes...

Sure, my home would be worth far more in Toronto, but it is not an investment here. After 8 years, if I was to sell, I would be VERY lucky to recoup my initial investment. Plus I have the added costs of requiring an automobile and no major hospital in the area, less employment opertunities, etc. It is the market that sets the prices.

A factor in the high property values in TO is the low tax rate. People pay whatever they can afford and property taxes is a factor in that. A friend of mine bought a house at 2.5 times the value of my home in TO and pays the same rate. So he pays as much in property taxes as I do, despite having over double the family income and having a house that he would make money off.

[August1991]

Just to name a few

House prices in Toronto are roughly twice (average $550,000 vs. $300,000) the other Ontario cities you cite. Property taxes are a cross between a poll tax, wealth tax and local services tax. It's the tax amount and not the tax rate that matters. A cubic metre of cement costs the same in Toronto as in Thunder Bay - more or less. (Unfortunately, it costs 30% more in Montreal but that's another story.)

You were justifing that The rest of Ontario should pay because TO makes more money thus pays more taxes argument... Your argument of Ontario pay for TO since to pays more taxes for being richer is the same argument Albertan seperatist make about equalization, etc..

DFC, I am surprised that you are just now discovering that modern governments make (weird, unjust) transfers between individuals. You seem to be concerned about transfers based on where a person lives. Have you considered transfers based on gender? Women live longer and typically use more health services. IOW, men contribute to pensions and pay health taxes and yet never receive the benefit. These transfers are much greater than equalization. Are they fair?

----

In this fight between Toronto and rural Ontario, I have no dog. I have always thought that northern Ontario should be a separate province. And I once thought that Toronto would make an interesting New World Hamburg. But these are separate conjectures.

Edited July 2, 2013 by August1991

[DFCaper]

House prices in Toronto are roughly twice (average $550,000 vs. $300,000) the other Ontario cities you cite. Property taxes are a cross between a poll tax, wealth tax and local services tax. It's the tax amount and not the tax rate that matters. A cubic metre of cement costs the same in Toronto as in Thunder Bay - more or less. (Unfortunately, it costs 30% more in Montreal but that's another story.)

This is an arguement for a flat tax versus a progressive tax system. Why should someone in TO with a $2M house pay more than someone with a $750K house? Should taxes be based solely on lot size?

That and the fact that TO is the municipality that cannot afford their responsibilities, so want to tax poorer regions to subsidize them, to keep a flat tax.

[guyser]

TO residents pay some of the highest taxes as a result of having the highest incomes...

Except they are not related at all

MPAC, call em and find out, MVA has nothing to do with income.

[guyser]

This is an arguement for a flat tax versus a progressive tax system. Why should someone in TO with a $2M house pay more than someone with a $750K house? Should taxes be based solely on lot size?

That and the fact that TO is the municipality that cannot afford their responsibilities, so want to tax poorer regions to subsidize them, to keep a flat tax

You arent making sense Edited July 2, 2013 by Guyser2

[DFCaper]

I thought it was implied by both Guyser & August that because of the higher value of homes in TO, for the equivalent quality of house, was why TO needed to pay a reduced tax rate. That the tax rate should be corrected for the higher cost per square footage.

So they are advocating to give tax relief on the value, because of the smaller size of homes for the money in Toronto. I was wondering if that belief was only when comparing regions or within a municipality. A 1000 sqft home in the slums is worth far less than a posh neighbourhood. Should we adjust the tax rates between these two places to make it more even, despite the value difference?

Municipal taxes are based on the value of the asset. If you are adjusting the tax rate to compensate for value differences between regions, you are taxing regions at a flat rate.

The only reason the region to region is an issue is that TO wants the other regions to pay a special tax for TOs municipal services. TO does not want to pay anywhere near the rates other Ontarians pay on their residential assets.

[DFCaper]

I do see the need for the province to need to help on some level. And fixing the too low tax rate will need to take time, as people cannot afford for this to happen over night.

It's the plan to just dump the issue on all Ontarians with the long term plan being that it is all Ontarians problem is where I have the issue.

I too would like to bypass or visit TO without the 1-3 hour traffic delays...

[Black Dog]

I do see the need for the province to need to help on some level. And fixing the too low tax rate will need to take time, as people cannot afford for this to happen over night.

It's the plan to just dump the issue on all Ontarians with the long term plan being that it is all Ontarians problem is where I have the issue.

I too would like to bypass or visit TO without the 1-3 hour traffic delays...

Except that's not the plan. All the proposed revenue tools are regional, impacting only those areas that benefit.

[Black Dog]

The song remains the same...

Mayor Rob Ford wants to extend Bloor-Danforth subway

OK, we went through this with Gordon Chong. But this time he must have a plan, right?

But when pressed after his announcement Wednesday afternoon, the mayor offered no immediate solutions to the funding conundrum.

“Mr. Pennachetti will find ways to finance the subway — that’s what the report’s going to do.”

[Boges]

I don't think any potential mayoral candidate has the guts at this point to oppose a Scarborough Subway. See Karen Stintz.

They all support the Subway but can't decide how to pay for it.

Now the Province is threatening to pull the funding if they don't make up their mind.

[Black Dog]

I don't think any potential mayoral candidate has the guts at this point to oppose a Scarborough Subway. See Karen Stintz.

They all support the Subway but can't decide how to pay for it.

Now the Province is threatening to pull the funding if they don't make up their mind.

Stintz is a terrible flip flopper on this. She was the one who led the charge on restarting the LRT project.

Meanwhile, the shovels are in the ground on the LRT already and with no way to fund a subway (and no actual demonstrated need for one), it seems to me that pushing that way is more likely to cause more harm than good. Build the effing LRT and use the $500-$925 Million that it would cost to upgrade the thing to a subway on another priority project.

[Black Dog]

The song remains the same...

Mayor Rob Ford wants to extend Bloor-Danforth subway

OK, we went through this with Gordon Chong. But this time he must have a plan, right?

Well, the report Ford asked for is out. It says - and this is a shocker - that if the city wants to replace the Scarborough RT with a subway instead of the planned LRT, it will cost over a billion dollars and they'll need to raise taxes to do it. What now for Ford?

[guyser]

What now for Ford?

KFC and glass pipe. Or the other way around.

[Boges]

Well, the report Ford asked for is out. It says - and this is a shocker - that if the city wants to replace the Scarborough RT with a subway instead of the planned LRT, it will cost over a billion dollars and they'll need to raise taxes to do it. What now for Ford?

It's less than 2% a year. If Ford says no to this then even his most ardent supporters will have to do a facepalm.

This big story here is the cynical flip flop on the Liberals part because they are fighting a byelection in Scarborough.

[Black Dog]

It's less than 2% a year. If Ford says no to this then even his most ardent supporters will have to do a facepalm.

I bet he does and they don't.

This big story here is the cynical flip flop on the Liberals part because they are fighting a byelection in Scarborough.

Sure. But the morons at the city who keep flogging this for political gain need to wear it as well.

[Black Dog]

I bet he does and they don't.

Ford says new subways will create "countless new jobs." Ford will only support tax increase of 0.25% for subway construction.

[Black Dog]

What's galling about this is, aside from the Liberals' craven pandering (which we should really expect), is the fact that the pro-Scarsie subway crowd are pro-subway for what seem to be purely aesthetic reasons. They like subways, ergo so Scaberia needs subways. But what's a billion dollars, give or take (to say nothing of the already sunk LRT costs)?

[Black Dog]

So council has voted to go ahead with the Scarborough subway...provided the feds kick in 50% of the funding and the province ponies up $1.8 billion...and they have to do it by Sept. 30. This, folks, is the actual embodiment of the gravy train. Of course there's not a chance in hell the feds come through with that dough, so by Oct. 1 we'll be right back here again. Oh and the motion also includes a tax hike for Toronto, so the rest of us get to pay more so some whiners in Scarberia can get a subway that will cost more and serve fewer of their own kind than the LRT they wanted killed. Unreeal. Can't wait to get out of this nuthouse of a city.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

This here is as about a good a summary of events as you will read:

So here we are, having gone from a plan that was locked in and paid for, to a plan that we don’t know how to pay for even if we cancel other projects and put ourselves deep in debt, which still might not get built, which the mayor doesn’t totally understand, which we don’t need in the first place because Scarborough was going to get brand-new, top-rate transit anyway.

[Black Dog]

Oh god this keeps getting funnier.

The province today announced they'll pay $1.4 billion of the proposed subway line. Only problem is, council's motion yesterday said its support of thr subway is contingent upon receiving $1.8 billion. And just like that, it's dead again.

[guyser]

What can ya do?

The incompetence of council and especially the Mayor is legion.

Amazing that Miller is the smart one and had a deal.

Fords too thickheaded and ignorant to see the forests for the trees.

[Boges]

What can ya do?The incompetence of council and especially the Mayor is legion.Amazing that Miller is the smart one and had a deal.Fords too thickheaded and ignorant to see the forests for the trees.

Well Ford ran on Subways so his stubbornness can be seen as understandable. But it's the other councillors that said "NO WAY" to a Scarborough subway 2 years ago and are now for them, they're the ones that are really embarrassing themselves.