Europe is an economic basket case

[wyly]

More reasons to avoid mass immigration from Europe. Not only do they falsify their education credits, but their educated and elite have turned their continent into an economic basket case. Wait for them to start another World War over there. Then everyone will be employed.

falsified education credit may go on(canadians have done it as well) but the biggest problem is the quality of education, our universities are consistent across the country in turning out graduates of comparable ability, we have no control over foreign accreditation process or the quality of the graduates their various schools turn out...

[dre]

once again you're wrong, i'm well connected to the medical accreditation process, the process is very well run and designed to filter out incompetent applicants and despite that some still get through...if they're driving a cab it's most likely because they're not qualified not because the system is loaded against them...clearly good mds' are identified and fast tracked through the system...

One again youre wrong. Even most of the doctors that spend FIVE YEARS getting recertified and pass all the exams STILL are not allowed to practice here. And the funny thing is that some the foreign doctors whos educations we refuse to recognize actually came over HERE to go to medical school

There is of course a legitimate reason to verify the skillsets of foreign doctors, but the current system is specifically designed by Canadian doctors to create scarcity.

But thats fine... if we want to keep pretending the rest of the world is stupid and prevent immigrants from using their skills in the workplace then so be it. But if thats the case why bother with trying to get skilled immigrants AT ALL.

Edited November 12, 2011 by dre

[Argus]

You seem to be suggesting that there is a trend towards lower quality immigrants but I cant find evidence of it. In fact, the immigrants we let in today are much more skilled and educated than they have been in the past.

And yet they are performing more poorly.

Like I said before, the problem is that we dont take advantage of any of these skills

.

And this wasn't a problem in prior years?

The unemployment rates for SKILLED immigrants are actually higher than the unemployment rates for UNSKILLED immigrants.This is because even though we weigh those certifications in the points-based immigration system, we refuse to honor those certifications in the real world.

Or perhaps its because they lack the communications skills to take advantage of their background education - as Stats Canada has reported.

About six in 10 newcomers have less than the desired level of literacy, the study says, and the employment rate for those with poor literacy skills is almost 20 percentage points lower than for those with the desired level.

TD Canada Study

Edited November 12, 2011 by Argus

[Argus]

Do we ? Maybe we need more highly skilled jobs first ?

I just did a search, and it looks to me that there were more careers for trade workers than highly specialized engineering or tech:

I don't think the kind of specialized jobs we're talking about are generally advertised in the same common sources as carpenters and brick layers.

And btw, few of the immigrants we get are carpenters or bricklayers. Nor do they seem to have much inclination towards moving to the trades, regardless of their economic difficulties. Immigrants, esp those from Asia, tend to regard the trades as beneath them.

Our system is supposed to select for success. But only 17 per cent of new arrivals are fully assessed on the basis of their employment and language skills. Half never meet a visa officer at all. Most of the people we bring in are “family class” immigrants, including parents and grandparents. The Centre for Immigration Policy Reform estimates that recent immigrants receive billions of dollars a year more in benefits than they pay in taxes. “We’re building a problem of enormous proportions,” Mr. Burney says.

A few frank words about immigration

Edited November 12, 2011 by Argus

[Argus]

falsified education credit may go on(canadians have done it as well) but the biggest problem is the quality of education, our universities are consistent across the country in turning out graduates of comparable ability, we have no control over foreign accreditation process or the quality of the graduates their various schools turn out...

Our often corrupt and poorly trained immigration bureaucrats control the assignment of points for skills, which differs from the US where American corporations call the shots. As a result, many immigrants arrive with impressive-sounding degrees and credentials which mean little in our workplace. In some parts of the world, these degrees can even be acquired from universities with small bribes.

Immigrants and job skills

[wyly]

One again youre wrong. Even most of the doctors that spend FIVE YEARS getting recertified and pass all the exams STILL are not allowed to practice here. And the funny thing is that some the foreign doctors whos educations we refuse to recognize actually came over HERE to go to medical school

But thats fine... if we want to keep pretending the rest of the world is stupid and prevent immigrants from using their skills in the workplace then so be it. But if thats the case why bother with trying to get skilled immigrants AT ALL.

do you make up all these myths yourself?...my info comes from people who do the accreditation checks and an a MDs who is part of the interview process...other than stories you hear down at timmy's where do you get your information?...some foreign MD's do no residency, they bypass the entire procedure because of their credentials... others go into the residency and are released early if they demonstrate competence...and then there others who have failed their medical tests repeatedly and never get into the residency, and those would be your mythical medical genius cab drivers...

There is of course a legitimate reason to verify the skillsets of foreign doctors, but the current system is specifically designed by Canadian doctors to create scarcity.

MDs can't cope with the case load they have now and they're all part of a conspiracy to horde even more patients?...one MD told me he could cut his case load in half and he'd still have a 6 month waiting list, and others refuse to take on more patients because they're at their limit but you have this idea they don't want any other MDs to have the patients that they'll never see?how is that logical?...MD shortage has nothing to do with MDs it is dependent on hospital funding and university funding...universities are limited in how many Med students they take in by funding,...hospitals have finite spaces for residency which is also dependent on funding...

[Wild Bill]

MDs can't cope with the case load they have now and they're all part of a conspiracy to horde even more patients?...one MD told me he could cut his case load in half and he'd still have a 6 month waiting list, and others refuse to take on more patients because they're at their limit but you have this idea they don't want any other MDs to have the patients that they'll never see?how is that logical?...MD shortage has nothing to do with MDs it is dependent on hospital funding and university funding...universities are limited in how many Med students they take in by funding,...hospitals have finite spaces for residency which is also dependent on funding...

We've covered this a number of times in other threads Wyly but people just don't want to hear it, it seems. They would much rather dream up conspiracy theories involving racist doctors running some sort of guild system to keep their incomes up.

Once again, the situation is DELIBERATE GOVERNMENT POLICY!

In Ontario. Bob Rae started it but all governments since have done nothing to change it. Every doctor gets a billing number to get paid from OHIP. More doctors means more billings, since a doctor can only do so much in any given day.

So you limit the number of doctors who can apply for a billing number. The biggest factor is limits on the number of doctor students in university.

You also cap how much a doctor can charge, so that once he limits out he would be working for free! That puts a limit on how much each individual doctor will charge.

There are exceptions for specialists, like heart and brain surgeons but overall the system works very well to keep the health care budget within the government's control.

Certainly, there is no way a government will allow a big influx of immigrant doctors to be accredited so they can start adding to the billings!

Governments obviously feel that they can't afford any such increases, or we would see more doctors in practice. The inconvenience to the populace and even a few deaths are considered an acceptable price. If the system went broke EVERYBODY suffers!

The greatest good for the greatest number. Isn't that the motto?

Since most Canadians have no idea of the cost of health care and prefer to think that it's free anyway, no sensible politician will ever talk plainly about the situation. Still, it doesn't matter what people believe. Follow the money - it doesn't lie!

[Michael Hardner]

I don't think the kind of specialized jobs we're talking about are generally advertised in the same common sources as carpenters and brick layers.

Mea culpa. I started a Google search for EI job demands, and it eventually took me there.

I need a better source.

[Michael Hardner]

Immigrants, esp those from Asia, tend to regard the trades as beneath them.

Really? They seem to take lower paying jobs quite readily.

[Wild Bill]

Really? They seem to take lower paying jobs quite readily.

Michael, I invite you to go to any construction site, perhaps a building going up in your downtown and peer through the fence.

Watch the workers and see for yourself!

Best to also get a picture or something of yourself at the site to put on the 'Net. Without some kind of cite some people here will say that your personal observation is worthless.

Still, it should give you some kind of an idea to satisfy your own curiosity.

My own experience has been that there are many visible minorities working as civil engineers and inspectors but tradesmen seem to be very scarce from that demographic. I don't really know why. It could be that tradesmen require a specialized accredited education that these folks would lack. It might be worth a thread of its own to chew that one over.

Whatever, again I suggest you take a look for yourself first to give yourself a baseline from which to argue.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, I invite you to go to any construction site, perhaps a building going up in your downtown and peer through the fence.

Watch the workers and see for yourself!

My point isn't whether or not they work in construction, but whether they turn up their noses a jobs that pay several times the jobs that they take.

Best to also get a picture or something of yourself at the site to put on the 'Net. Without some kind of cite some people here will say that your personal observation is worthless.

Not true. People only ask you to back up your facts if they doubt them.

I don't think anybody is doubting that there are many cab drivers in Toronto from Asia, unless they haven't been there in 30 years.

My own experience has been that there are many visible minorities working as civil engineers and inspectors but tradesmen seem to be very scarce from that demographic. I don't really know why. It could be that tradesmen require a specialized accredited education that these folks would lack. It might be worth a thread of its own to chew that one over.

Agreed.

[Guest Derek L]

do you make up all these myths yourself?...my info comes from people who do the accreditation checks and an a MDs who is part of the interview process...other than stories you hear down at timmy's where do you get your information?...some foreign MD's do no residency, they bypass the entire procedure because of their credentials... others go into the residency and are released early if they demonstrate competence...and then there others who have failed their medical tests repeatedly and never get into the residency, and those would be your mythical medical genius cab drivers...

Indeed, but ultimately the accreditation process depends on the regulatory body in each province…….My wife was an accredited dentist in South Africa, but the Royal collage of dentists of Canada, generally requires (Unless educated in the States) two years of study in Canada prior to being accredited.

It really is a province by province basis, and ultimately depends on the individual. I’m sure there are some Doctors/Dentists driving cabs or washing dishes in Canada, but I doubt it’s a general trend.

[Guest Derek L]

Michael, I invite you to go to any construction site, perhaps a building going up in your downtown and peer through the fence.

Watch the workers and see for yourself!

Best to also get a picture or something of yourself at the site to put on the 'Net. Without some kind of cite some people here will say that your personal observation is worthless.

Still, it should give you some kind of an idea to satisfy your own curiosity.

My own experience has been that there are many visible minorities working as civil engineers and inspectors but tradesmen seem to be very scarce from that demographic. I don't really know why. It could be that tradesmen require a specialized accredited education that these folks would lack. It might be worth a thread of its own to chew that one over.

Whatever, again I suggest you take a look for yourself first to give yourself a baseline from which to argue.

Not true, it must be looked at by a province by province basis………My neighbour, a Journeyman carpenter with 30+ years of experience, has often shared stories of how the recent building boom in downtown Vancouver was fuelled by Latin American labour……..As a personal observation, many, many homes in the lower mainland are built by East Indians…..

[Argus]

Really? They seem to take lower paying jobs quite readily.

Yeah, I know. And they don't mind putting in long hours either. Maybe it's a cultural thing. You just don't see them around construction and trades, not even as unskilled labourers. There are very few blacks either. I've only known two. They were Carribeans, not from Africa or the mid-east. Both did drywall and plaster, and they were both really bad at it. They still found work, though. There's just such a shortage.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Yeah, I know. And they don't mind putting in long hours either. Maybe it's a cultural thing. You just don't see them around construction and trades, not even as unskilled labourers. There are very few blacks either. I've only known two. They were Carribeans, not from Africa or the mid-east. Both did drywall and plaster, and they were both really bad at it. They still found work, though. There's just such a shortage.

These are mostly well-paid union jobs though, right ? Is there a shortage of those ? And... that industry seems cyclical to put it mildly.

[wyly]

We've covered this a number of times in other threads Wyly but people just don't want to hear it, it seems. They would much rather dream up conspiracy theories involving racist doctors running some sort of guild system to keep their incomes up.

true but this perception still has to be dealt otherwise it keeps recirculating and gains legitimacy...

Once again, the situation is DELIBERATE GOVERNMENT POLICY!

mostly yes...

In Ontario. Bob Rae started it but all governments since have done nothing to change it. Every doctor gets a billing number to get paid from OHIP. More doctors means more billings, since a doctor can only do so much in any given day.

So you limit the number of doctors who can apply for a billing number. The biggest factor is limits on the number of doctor students in university.

You also cap how much a doctor can charge, so that once he limits out he would be working for free! That puts a limit on how much each individual doctor will charge.

There are exceptions for specialists, like heart and brain surgeons but overall the system works very well to keep the health care budget within the government's control.

Certainly, there is no way a government will allow a big influx of immigrant doctors to be accredited so they can start adding to the billings!

Governments obviously feel that they can't afford any such increases, or we would see more doctors in practice. The inconvenience to the populace and even a few deaths are considered an acceptable price. If the system went broke EVERYBODY suffers!

more MDs makes joe public happy but more MDs mean higher taxes which makes joe public pissed, so politicians are forever doing a juggling act promising lower taxes and better healthcare, other than improvements tinkering with the delivery of the system shaving dollars here and there they're putting off any real improvements...

Since most Canadians have no idea of the cost of health care and prefer to think that it's free anyway, no sensible politician will ever talk plainly about the situation. Still, it doesn't matter what people believe. Follow the money - it doesn't lie!

with politicians their pensions and power are more important than stirring up a hornets nest that could cost them re-election...

so you're correct and as michael has always pointed out information and education of the public is what's required...

[wyly]

Michael, I invite you to go to any construction site, perhaps a building going up in your downtown and peer through the fence.

Watch the workers and see for yourself!

large downtown construction sites get all press but there's an enormous construction world in smaller projects...and then visible minorities isn't something you can gauge it by, a visible minority on a work site could 3rd 4th 5th generation canadian...I've spent a lifetime in construction, skilled trades are always in demand and where many immigrants begin...when I was young the trades were home to many non english speaking europeans, being limited in english was no a hindrance

in making a good living, a non english speaking carpenter will find employment easier than a non english speaking MD in their respective skills...now I see many asians immigrants in the skilled trades, mostly chinese, filipinos, but latino's from central america as well, these are good jobs, 50-150K... then there are still number of less skilled immigrants who work restaurants, cleaning, entry level jobs that can give on the job training...

My own experience has been that there are many visible minorities working as civil engineers and inspectors but tradesmen seem to be very scarce from that demographic. I don't really know why. It could be that tradesmen require a specialized accredited education that these folks would lack. It might be worth a thread of its own to chew that one over.

where you(or I) live may have something to do with the perception, and what you do for a living, for me interacting with tradesmen meeting immigrants is very common, welders, carpenters, electricians, roofers, framers, auto technicians, tile setters, stone masons, drywallers, millrights...as european immigrants tradesmen are retiring and their children move into more academic pursuits so they're being replaced by a new generation of asian and latino immigrants...at least that's what i see where I live...

[Evening Star]

Our often corrupt and poorly trained immigration bureaucrats control the assignment of points for skills, which differs from the US where American corporations call the shots. As a result, many immigrants arrive with impressive-sounding degrees and credentials which mean little in our workplace. In some parts of the world, these degrees can even be acquired from universities with small bribes.

Immigrants and job skills

To be clear, do you agree with him, Argus, that we should in fact continue to recruit plenty of immigrants from South Asia but we should focus on recruiting Hindus (especially Gujaratis and South Indians) instead of Sikhs and Muslims? You realize that this seems to be the crux of his argument?

[Argus]

To be clear, do you agree with him, Argus, that we should in fact continue to recruit plenty of immigrants from South Asia but we should focus on recruiting Hindus (especially Gujaratis and South Indians) instead of Sikhs and Muslims? You realize that this seems to be the crux of his argument?

The crux of MY argument has always been that we should get the best immigrants possible. That means immigrants who will perform best economically, blend in the fastest, and cause the least amount of social upheaval. I don't care where they come from as long as they're the best at meeting those goals. Logically, the best would come from Europe, given their cultures and values are similar to ours, that so many of them can speak English, and that they're technological societies. But I'm quite sure there are some highly capable people in south Asia who would also make good immigrants.

[Argus]

These are mostly well-paid union jobs though, right ? Is there a shortage of those ? And... that industry seems cyclical to put it mildly.

There's such a shortage of people with even basic skills that almost anyone can get hired by this or that contractor, if not on a job site then for renovations jobs. But you do have to keep moving from job to job, for the most part. Maybe that's it. Maybe they see full-time steady work as a taxi driver or security guard to be better? I don't know.

[punked]

Greeces bonds are at 19%, they have the biggest hole to get out of. THe trend is your friend, Ireland's have trended downwards. that's a good thing.

The pundits said that there was no chance for growth in 2011, the numbers said otherwise.

And you have no way of knowing that there will be no GDP growth as well, we'll just have to wait until Q4 is published.

Irish unemployment up again this month it is almost 15%. If that is somehow a recovery or a model that Blueblood says the rest of Europe should follow I say it is crazy talk.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1213/1224308998584.html

[dre]

more MDs makes joe public happy but more MDs mean higher taxes which makes joe public pissed, so politicians are forever doing a juggling act promising lower taxes and better healthcare, other than improvements tinkering with the delivery of the system shaving dollars here and there they're putting off any real improvements...

Theres more to it than that. They have been throwing money at the problem hand over fist. Medical costs and wages are growing faster than inflation, and faster than tax revenue. This clearly is not sustainable and before any more money is tossed at the system we need to address rising costs, and hopefully lower them a fair bit, but at LEAST stabilise them.

[punked]

The fact is that Ireland cut it's spending to the bone in 2010 and yet managed to have growth in 2011. Unfortunately the situation in Italy will slow that down. Unfortunately you are living in a tax and spend is the way out of recession works and I'm not. Ireland's recovery is proof of that.

It's been months since I heard Ireland being mentioned with Italy Greece and portugal when talking about the eurozone crisis. Why, Ireland drank their buckleys. Greece did not.

Looks like that growth forecast was WRONG. Looks like you are WRONG! And it looks like their GDP will continue to shrink in 2012 from the new predictions. Welcome to right wing economics people rising unemployment shrinking wages.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/17/business/global/irish-gdp-shrinks-in-quarter.html