Europe is an economic basket case

[bush_cheney2004]

You might take that as a demonstration of just how bad life is in Mexico, not how good life is in the US

...but that wouldn't explain the Canadian emigres, now would it?

Mexicans would die trying to get to Italy, too, if they were on its border.

You mean like Guatemala?

[Smallc]

Only the first generation? Oh well, that's only about fifty or sixty years on welfare - for millions of immigrants. That's no strain to our system!

I didn't say that they go on welfare - they don't - they simply don't tend to have jobs that pay as well as a natural born Canadian with similar skills and education.

Oh, and your posting history makes it very clear how you feel about legal immigrants....who aren't white and English.

[Rocky Road]

What's with the mental health reference in the topic title?

Stigma towards the mentally ill is a major problem, and reenforcing stereotypes does noone any good.

1 in 5 suffer a mental illness.

[olp1fan]

...but that wouldn't explain the Canadian emigres, now would it?

You mean like Guatemala?

There are 1 million American Canadians living in Canada and less than 800 000 Canadians living in America

I don't get what your problem is ...its ridiculous how you think Canadians are just streaming across the border to live in America

We do stream across the border but that is to shop

you seem to think like the typical American ...like everyone would live in the U.S if given the choice, I feel sorry for you

Edited November 11, 2011 by olp1fan

[Argus]

I didn't say that they go on welfare - they don't - they simply don't tend to have jobs that pay as well as a natural born Canadian with similar skills and education.

Half of all the people in this country pay no taxes. Guess who makes up that half? It's not just people on welfare. It's all the people in lower tier jobs who don't earn much. The whole reason we're bringing these people over is supposed to be to help us economically, but if they have lousy jobs then they're not helping, they're hurting.

Oh, and your posting history makes it very clear how you feel about legal immigrants....who aren't white and English.

More like you simply aren't intelligent enough to grasp any of the nuances of my positions on immigration.

But that's okay. I guess there has to be a lower tier here too.

[Argus]

What's with the mental health reference in the topic title?

Stigma towards the mentally ill is a major problem, and reenforcing stereotypes does noone any good.

1 in 5 suffer a mental illness.

What a retarded thing to say.

[Smallc]

Half of all the people in this country pay no taxes. Guess who makes up that half? It's not just people on welfare. It's all the people in lower tier jobs who don't earn much.

That doesn't mean they aren't contributing economically.

The whole reason we're bringing these people over is supposed to be to help us economically, but if they have lousy jobs then they're not helping, they're hurting.

I've already pointed out that the subsequent generations do much better, and make us much stronger....but the new systems being implemented seem to address most of your concerns, and yet you still bitch.

More like you simply aren't intelligent enough to grasp any of the nuances of my positions on immigration.

But that's okay. I guess there has to be a lower tier here too.

Yeah, and the proof is easy to see.

[dre]

I know you're too ignorant and lacking in both education and wisdom to actually judge what I or anyone else hate or don't hate, so all you can manage is your usual sulky boy routine.

Only the first generation? Oh well, that's only about fifty or sixty years on welfare - for millions of immigrants. That's no strain to our system!

The unemployment rate for new immigrants is only a couple of points higher than it is for other Canadians. Considering the challenges inherent in setting up shop in a brand new country immigrants do an EXCELLENT job getting into the work force, and immigrants have accounted for the VAST MAJORITY of growth in the Canadian labor force since 1990.

And second generation immigrants are some of our best and most productive citizens. More likely to own a home than native born Canadians.

So this picture youre trying to paint of people being on welfare for 50 or 60 years, is really just completely bogus.

Beyond that what you are saying has merit. Young people from Europe should make good immigrants, and we should let some of them in. Im pretty sure we already do.

[WWWTT]

Half of all the people in this country pay no taxes. Guess who makes up that half? It's not just people on welfare. It's all the people in lower tier jobs who don't earn much. The whole reason we're bringing these people over is supposed to be to help us economically, but if they have lousy jobs then they're not helping, they're hurting.

This quote is proof that you are putting some immigrants in a no win scenario!

There are so many things wrong with this comment,did you not proof read it?

Like about the employer who is providing this job?

Or how our tax system work?

Maybe you have a problem with our tax system?

Does the person working at this job dictate how the system works?

Or would this person even have enough left over if they had to pay 33% in taxes?Would they continue this job or go on welfare?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

The unemployment rate for new immigrants is only a couple of points higher than it is for other Canadians. Considering the challenges inherent in setting up shop in a brand new country immigrants do an EXCELLENT job getting into the work force, and immigrants have accounted for the VAST MAJORITY of growth in the Canadian labor force since 1990.

And second generation immigrants are some of our best and most productive citizens. More likely to own a home than native born Canadians.

So this picture youre trying to paint of people being on welfare for 50 or 60 years, is really just completely bogus.

Beyond that what you are saying has merit. Young people from Europe should make good immigrants, and we should let some of them in. Im pretty sure we already do.

Bang on!

My wife has bein in Canada since Set.12 2011(she is from Nanning,China)and she started work last week through a job placement centre.

Since she arrived she has constantly searched for work and will accept any opportunity

She only earns 10.25/hr but she enjoys being productfull and participating!

This is what Canada needs more of!

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

There are 1 million American Canadians living in Canada and less than 800 000 Canadians living in America

Oh I doubt that very much. You are just counting legals!

I don't get what your problem is ...its ridiculous how you think Canadians are just streaming across the border to live in America

We do stream across the border but that is to shop

You just contradicted yourself.

you seem to think like the typical American ...like everyone would live in the U.S if given the choice, I feel sorry for you

Don't whine to me....tell it to the 43 million emigres living in the US...that more than the entire population of Canada. 312,000,000 vs 34,000,000....must be the weather...right?

[dre]

A few more things to consider Argus. Despite your characterization of immigrants as being people who go on welfare for 60 years (LOL), and your suggestion that Canada accepts low quality immigrants.

The truth is that we let in mostly very good immigrants, and that the skill and education levels of our immigrants has been steadily increasing. A large percentage of them are in fact highly educated, and 38% of Canadians with post graduate degrees are immigrants.

Within the Canadian economy, immigrants are most found at the highest education levels. In Canada, 38% of male workers with a post-graduate degree are immigrants to the country.[22] 23% of Canadians are foreign born, but 49% of doctorate holders and 40% of those with a masters degree were born outside Canada.[23] A persistent problem for skilled immigrants is the recognition of foreign credentials

So... While only 23% of Canadians are foreign born, immigrants make up almost 50% of our nations doctorate degree holders, and 40% of our nations masters degree holders. As that quote points out, the biggest problem isnt the educational credentials of immigrants. Its the fact we dont recognize their educations or certifications so many of them have to start back at square 1 anyways. We are in the middle of a doctor shortage but more than 1/2 of doctors that immigrate to India end up driving cab.

Heres unemployment rates.

Unemployment rate

7.0% - Female immigrants

6.3% - Male immigrants

4.1% - Female Native Canadians

5.0% - Male Native Canadians

As you can see, the rates for immigrants are a bit higher, but really quite close. The biggest difference seems to be between females. Thats probably cultural. I any case a 2% different in unemployment rates hardly warrants generalizing new immigrants as people that collect welfare for 50 years. Youre view on this seems to be the result of assumptions, and stereotypes as opposed to real information about our immigrants.

Anyhow at the end of the day Canada gets pretty good immigrants. They are more highly educated than your average Canadian, and willing to work for a bit less. Then their children go on to be some of our most productive citizens.

[olp1fan]

Oh I doubt that very much. You are just counting legals!

You just contradicted yourself.

Don't whine to me....tell it to the 43 million emigres living in the US...that more than the entire population of Canada. 312,000,000 vs 34,000,000....must be the weather...right?

and how many of that 43 million are there ilegally? try to enforce your borders

btw, yes, it is because of the weather

[bush_cheney2004]

and how many of that 43 million are there ilegally? try to enforce your borders

btw, yes, it is because of the weather

Who knows...too many to count 'em while they stream across the Canadian border!

As for the weather, now you know why the British and Americans "gave" you Canada!

[Argus]

The unemployment rate for new immigrants is only a couple of points higher than it is for other Canadians.

It's not just the rate, it's the jobs they're getting. Was a time when immigrants, having been carefully selected actually had higher incomes than those born in Canada. That began to go south in the eighties, and has been deteriorating steadily ever since as the gap between the skills of immigrants and the skills sought by the workplace in Canada have continued to widen.

And second generation immigrants are some of our best and most productive citizens.

Such statistics are from the old time immigrants, the ones who actually did better than Canadians. There is no likelihood the same will exist with the newer immigrants.

So this picture youre trying to paint of people being on welfare for 50 or 60 years, is really just completely bogus.

Is it? How come I can go to any public housing project and find it filled with immigrants?

[Argus]

Bang on!

My wife has bein in Canada since Set.12 2011(she is from Nanning,China)and she started work last week through a job placement centre.

Since she arrived she has constantly searched for work and will accept any opportunity

She only earns 10.25/hr but she enjoys being productfull and participating!

This is what Canada needs more of!

WWWTT

With all due respect, what Canada needs more of are highly skilled workers commanding large incomes and paying lots of taxes, not unskilled workers with poor language skills earning minimum wages - however enthusiastic they are.

[dre]

With all due respect, what Canada needs more of are highly skilled workers commanding large incomes and paying lots of taxes, not unskilled workers with poor language skills earning minimum wages - however enthusiastic they are.

Right. Thats exactly what we doing. The skill level of immigrants, and their education levels has been steadily increasing. Even though immigrants only make up 23% of our population, they make up 40% of our masters degree holders, and 50 percent of our doctorate holders.

[Argus]

A few more things to consider Argus. Despite your characterization of immigrants as being people who go on welfare for 60 years (LOL), and your suggestion that Canada accepts low quality immigrants.

I didn't say 'low quality'. I said that gap between their skills and what the Canadian work place needs is growing greater and greater, and as a consequence, the economic performance of immigrants continues to deteriorate. Stats Canada has been saying that for some time. It's undeniable fact.

The truth is that we let in mostly very good immigrants, and that the skill and education levels of our immigrants has been steadily increasing

. A large percentage of them are in fact highly educated, and 38% of Canadians with post graduate degrees are immigrants.

That's really nice. A taxi driver I once had, who claimed he had a doctorate in engineering, no doubt was among them. Problem is that if your post-secondary education isn't transferable to Canada, or if your language skills aren't up to par, that piece of paper isn't going to get you work. People with doctorates are expected to be able to communicate, orally and in writing, at a very high level of literacy on very complex subjects. If you can't do that, you're going to be driving a cab.

So... While only 23% of Canadians are foreign born, immigrants make up almost 50% of our nations doctorate degree holders, and 40% of our nations masters degree holders.

The immigration department likes to put out figures like that. What they don't brag about is that in addition to immigrants having, as a whole, a higher degree of post secondary degrees, immigrants are also more likely than native born Canadians to have less than a high school education, and much more likely to have less than a grade eight education. Most immigrants come from third world countries, after all, and only a small number of them come in after having been tested for educational and job skills.

As you can see, the rates for immigrants are a bit higher, but really quite close.

The difference between 5 an 7 might seem close, on the surface, but in percentage terms, 7 is 40% higher than 5.

Given we are supposedly selecting people who are supposed to meet a variety of skills and educational criteria, do you really think a 40% higher unemployment rate is acceptable?

[dre]

It's not just the rate, it's the jobs they're getting. Was a time when immigrants, having been carefully selected actually had higher incomes than those born in Canada. That began to go south in the eighties, and has been deteriorating steadily ever since as the gap between the skills of immigrants and the skills sought by the workplace in Canada have continued to widen.

Such statistics are from the old time immigrants, the ones who actually did better than Canadians. There is no likelihood the same will exist with the newer immigrants.

Is it? How come I can go to any public housing project and find it filled with immigrants?

I dunno what public housing projects youve been to. But thats nothing more than a personal anecdote. Like I said, our immigrants on balance are highly skilled, and very successfull in entering our workforce.

You seem to be suggesting that there is a trend towards lower quality immigrants but I cant find evidence of it. In fact, the immigrants we let in today are much more skilled and educated than they have been in the past.

From 2001 to 2006 56% of immigrants who arrived in Canada held a university degree, a sharp increase over the 28% who arrived prior to 2001.

Like I said before, the problem is that we dont take advantage of any of these skills. The unemployment rates for SKILLED immigrants are actually higher than the unemployment rates for UNSKILLED immigrants. This is because even though we weigh those certifications in the points-based immigration system, we refuse to honor those certifications in the real world. Like I said... half our our Indian medical doctors are driving cab even though India has earned itself a reputation of training pretty good MD's.

[WWWTT]

With all due respect, what Canada needs more of are highly skilled workers commanding large incomes and paying lots of taxes, not unskilled workers with poor language skills earning minimum wages - however enthusiastic they are.

Once again you poorly think your comments through.

And how do you think someone achieves those skills?

Skill,knowledge and success must be achieved with hard work!

The want and desire must be there first!

WWWTT

[dre]

I didn't say 'low quality'. I said that gap between their skills and what the Canadian work place needs is growing greater and greater, and as a consequence, the economic performance of immigrants continues to deteriorate. Stats Canada has been saying that for some time. It's undeniable fact.

That's really nice. A taxi driver I once had, who claimed he had a doctorate in engineering, no doubt was among them. Problem is that if your post-secondary education isn't transferable to Canada, or if your language skills aren't up to par, that piece of paper isn't going to get you work. People with doctorates are expected to be able to communicate, orally and in writing, at a very high level of literacy on very complex subjects. If you can't do that, you're going to be driving a cab.

The immigration department likes to put out figures like that. What they don't brag about is that in addition to immigrants having, as a whole, a higher degree of post secondary degrees, immigrants are also more likely than native born Canadians to have less than a high school education, and much more likely to have less than a grade eight education. Most immigrants come from third world countries, after all, and only a small number of them come in after having been tested for educational and job skills.

The difference between 5 an 7 might seem close, on the surface, but in percentage terms, 7 is 40% higher than 5.

Given we are supposedly selecting people who are supposed to meet a variety of skills and educational criteria, do you really think a 40% higher unemployment rate is acceptable?

Given we are supposedly selecting people who are supposed to meet a variety of skills and educational criteria, do you really think a 40% higher unemployment rate is acceptable?

Absolutely. Considering the challenge of setting up shop in a new country Im impressed that their employment rates are only a couple of percent different than ours. Its outstanding actually.

A taxi driver I once had, who claimed he had a doctorate in engineering, no doubt was among them. Problem is that if your post-secondary education isn't transferable to Canada, or if your language skills aren't up to par, that piece of paper isn't going to get you work.

No it goes way beyond that. The problem in most cases isnt language skills its simply that we dont have good systems for accrediting skilled immigrants. When a doctor immigrates here for example its almost impossible for him to get a residency position even after he takes the exams, and just getting through the exams can take 5 years.

If we want to take advantage of educated immigrants we need to set up accreditation infrastructure. Otherwise the whole idea of picking educated immigrants is rather pointless.

Most immigrants come from third world countries

What? Can I have a source for that?

From what I can tell its completely false. The biggest countries of origion for our immigrants are countries like China, India, Germany, the UK, Italy, etc.

All the dark red ones on here...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/COB_data_Canada.PNG/800px-COB_data_Canada.PNG

[Wild Bill]

No it goes way beyond that. The problem in most cases isnt language skills its simply that we dont have good systems for accrediting skilled immigrants. When a doctor immigrates here for example its almost impossible for him to get a residency position even after he takes the exams, and just getting through the exams can take 5 years.

I had a good friend who had come to Canada from Russia, after the fall of the USSR. He used to joke about what he called "aircraft degrees".

By this he meant that no matter what level of schooling the Russian emmigrant passengers had when they boarded the plane in Russia, when they landed in Canada they were all PHDs in every sort of area you could imagine!

He personally was really an electrical engineer but maintains that there were so many phony diplomas that could be bought cheap that they might as well have been sold on the plane along with the snacks and drinks!

I have no proof of course but I never saw any reason to discount his personal experience. Who in Canada would even bother to check academic credentials from most of these countries, particularly if no contact was able to speak English? Or the contact was a phony, set up as part of the service from whoever forged the credentials?

Seems absurdly easy to commit such fraud! And as long as those supplying the forged documents never set foot in Canada what possible retribution could they face?

[Shwa]

I had a good friend who had come to Canada from Russia, after the fall of the USSR. He used to joke about what he called "aircraft degrees".

By this he meant that no matter what level of schooling the Russian emmigrant passengers had when they boarded the plane in Russia, when they landed in Canada they were all PHDs in every sort of area you could imagine!

He personally was really an electrical engineer but maintains that there were so many phony diplomas that could be bought cheap that they might as well have been sold on the plane along with the snacks and drinks!

I have no proof of course but I never saw any reason to discount his personal experience. Who in Canada would even bother to check academic credentials from most of these countries, particularly if no contact was able to speak English? Or the contact was a phony, set up as part of the service from whoever forged the credentials?

Seems absurdly easy to commit such fraud! And as long as those supplying the forged documents never set foot in Canada what possible retribution could they face?

More reasons to avoid mass immigration from Europe. Not only do they falsify their education credits, but their educated and elite have turned their continent into an economic basket case. Wait for them to start another World War over there. Then everyone will be employed.

[Michael Hardner]

With all due respect, what Canada needs more of are highly skilled workers commanding large incomes and paying lots of taxes, not unskilled workers with poor language skills earning minimum wages - however enthusiastic they are.

Do we ? Maybe we need more highly skilled jobs first ?

I just did a search, and it looks to me that there were more careers for trade workers than highly specialized engineering or tech:

http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/res-eng.aspx?TmFrm=E48Hours&ProvId=06&OpPage=50&Stdnt=No

Hardly any high paying jobs on there, and there weren't many you would want to recruit for from a non English speaking country. Of course, there is a position open for an Immam but I don't know if that is the type of position you're looking to fill, though it's very specialized and likely well paying.

[wyly]

No it goes way beyond that. The problem in most cases isnt language skills its simply that we dont have good systems for accrediting skilled immigrants. When a doctor immigrates here for example its almost impossible for him to get a residency position even after he takes the exams, and just getting through the exams can take 5 years.

once again you're wrong, i'm well connected to the medical accreditation process, the process is very well run and designed to filter out incompetent applicants and despite that some still get through...if they're driving a cab it's most likely because they're not qualified not because the system is loaded against them...clearly good mds' are identified and fast tracked through the system... Edited November 12, 2011 by wyly