Gee ! 9 0f 20 get Canucks bucks in aid

[Michael Hardner]

Qualified on what premise? Your personal feelings?

On what I have seen. ER data I've seen, plus the tiny peeks we get into the workings of things like eHealth, the firearms registry and my own working experience in past lives.

Also, I think it's intellectually dishonest to defend the practice for governments to avoid reporting performance while simultaneously demanding that I produce evidence of under performance.

If they were forthcoming with data, then we could have a better conversation couldn't we ?

[Michael Hardner]

Government performance is an oxymoron.

All the more reason for them to own up to what they're doing, don't you think ? Complacency is a gross moss, and those words don't rhyme.

[Michael Hardner]

Which is Gov 2.0 isn't it? I am sure you are aware of Shared Services Canada, one of initiatives with a goal of consolidating data centres and server farms. That will go towards Gov 2.0. Then there are the billion dollar hardware and infrastructure renewals. It is not like the government can go into TigerDirect and start filling up the cart.

Secondary to all this is the sheer amount of data to be classified, which you yourself agree is an important component. So who reviews and classifies it all? A very impotant billion dollar question.

That's what I would call an investment, though. I'm glad to hear that the CPC is behind this. Conservative governments, like them or not, understand that they don't get into office very often so they some try to make a mark - as Mulroney did with the FTA.

[bush_cheney2004]

All the more reason for them to own up to what they're doing, don't you think ? Complacency is a gross moss, and those words don't rhyme.

No..I don't. It's the frickin' government, where all efficiencies go to die. When I go to renew my driver's or vehicle licenses, expectations are purposely set to rock bottom in the hope that I will be pleasantly surprised! Take a number....

Edited November 8, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

No..I don't. It's the frickin' government, where all efficiencies go to die. When I go to renew my driver's or vehicle licenses, expectations are purposely set to rock bottom in the hope that I will be pleasantly surprised! Take a number....

Your expectations are therefore deserved. There were far greater obstacles in our path in the past, and we got through them. Government as it exists, and as it was designed in the mid-20th century, is due for an overhaul. It's everywhere - Tea Party and Hippies arguing about what governments do with all the knowledge of a medieval wizard. The times they are a-changin'.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... It's everywhere - Tea Party and Hippies arguing about what governments do with all the knowledge of a medieval wizard. The times they are a-changin'.

Not really...don't confuse data with data distribution. It will always be more pull than push.

[eyeball]

Transparency?

If I've said it once...

...ah what's the point?

Never mind.

[Shwa]

On what I have seen. ER data I've seen, plus the tiny peeks we get into the workings of things like eHealth, the firearms registry and my own working experience in past lives.

Also, I think it's intellectually dishonest to defend the practice for governments to avoid reporting performance while simultaneously demanding that I produce evidence of under performance.

If they were forthcoming with data, then we could have a better conversation couldn't we ?

Trust me, there is no need to defend the practice of government because there is no real case presented against it and when there is, the evidence is almost always anectdotal based on some esoteric and highly personal metric.

Its like blaming the book for illiteracy. Uh-uh.

The more one has a vested interest in the information, the more time and effort one is willing to put into research - not only for the end goals, but for the means and methods as well. I think that is plainly clear concept that is taught and demonstrated from grade school and up and results in research libraries and departments and so on.

Heck, you might even be looking for data that doesn't even exist and your quarrel is with something else altogether.

[Michael Hardner]

Transparency?

If I've said it once...

...ah what's the point?

Never mind.

We won't know until somebody tries it.

[Michael Hardner]

Trust me, there is no need to defend the practice of government because there is no real case presented against it and when there is, the evidence is almost always anectdotal based on some esoteric and highly personal metric.

I think I pointed that out in my previous post to you.

The more one has a vested interest in the information, the more time and effort one is willing to put into research - not only for the end goals, but for the means and methods as well. I think that is plainly clear concept that is taught and demonstrated from grade school and up and results in research libraries and departments and so on.

The public has no vested interest - only a general interest. We rely on the press to investigate for us, but with the cutbacks in media we can't rely on them to report, only cut/paste press releases.

[dre]

The problem here is that expecting the government to curb its secrecy is sorta like expecting the flies to get together and fix the hole in your screen door. They dont WANT the hole fixed!. They will either do a really crappy job of fixing it, or they will engineer a workaround that gets them into the kitchen.

When we get uppity about this kind of thing, theyll do the bare minimum to shut us up, and theyll put in enough caveats and loopholes to do what they want to do.

And we are left wondering... "Why didnt that fox do a better job of mending the fence around my chicken coup!?". And the answer is simple. Its not that he couldnt have done a good job! HE WANTS TO EAT THE CHICKENS.

The other problem of course is that some people absolutely FAWN after government secrecy, and think the world is a spy movie. Remember all the morons calling for Wiki Leaks officials to be assasinated? They LOVE their secrecy, and go ballistic at the very idea that someone would challenge the governments supremecy.

What you are talking about makes a lot of sense, and its easy stuff to do logistically just hard politically. Our governments thinks like Plato. They think we're stupid, and believe that only they have the context and the understanding of complex issues to make decisions, and that only THEY are responsible and intelligent enough to know the truth.

Edited November 8, 2011 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

I concur, dre. The thing about this is - voters from left & right should be getting behind these ideas. Prime Ministers and Presidents see the value of this (Obama in the US and Cameron in the UK) but citizens somehow don't think it's important to get the details of where a bazillion trillion dollars/euros go.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Prime Ministers and Presidents see the value of this (Obama in the US and Cameron in the UK) but citizens somehow don't think it's important to get the details of where a bazillion trillion dollars/euros go.

We already know where it goes, and only dedicated wonks want reports down to every penny. These types will mine the data on their own, without the need for a huge public facing web site for appropriations and expenditures. Hell, the Americans have a GAO dedicated to this sort of thing already. That's right....the gubmint checks itself!

[Michael Hardner]

We already know where it goes, and only dedicated wonks want reports down to every penny.

No you don't.

I guess you haven't read my posts about theSunlight Foundation who are fighting the good fight in the US. They found huge discrepancies between budget and treasury department disbursements. The budgets aren't even correct.

Even the wonks can't get at the data.

These types will mine the data on their own, without the need for a huge public facing web site for appropriations and expenditures.

They can't even get the raw data released in some cases.

Hell, the Americans have a GAO dedicated to this sort of thing already. That's right....the gubmint checks itself!

How's that workin' for ya ?

[bush_cheney2004]

No you don't.

Speak for yourself...The US federal budget has been under close scrutiny for years...apparently by Canadians too.

I guess you haven't read my posts about theSunlight Foundation who are fighting the good fight in the US. They found huge discrepancies between budget and treasury department disbursements. The budgets aren't even correct.

That's OK.... budgets are for fiscal year planning. Things change.

Even the wonks can't get at the data.

Then they need to hire better wonks.

They can't even get the raw data released in some cases.

Different issue....programs are called "black" for a reason.

How's that workin' for ya ?

Fine...I don't worry about it, and certainly not about more sunshine on Canadian budgets. Sheeeesh....

[Michael Hardner]

Speak for yourself...The US federal budget has been under close scrutiny for years...apparently by Canadians too.

Ok - so my brothers in arms at the Sunshine Foundation are crazy, I guess.

That's OK.... budgets are for fiscal year planning. Things change.

1,306,120,795,761 in spending misreported

Fine...I don't worry about it, and certainly not about more sunshine on Canadian budgets. Sheeeesh....

Hmmm... a Republican that doesn't worry about government waste. You are indeed full of surprises.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok - so my brothers in arms at the Sunshine Foundation are crazy, I guess.

No, just similarly obsessed. I guess it's something to do.

1,306,120,795,761 in spending misreported

That figure is probably low.

Hmmm... a Republican that doesn't worry about government waste. You are indeed full of surprises.

I'm not a Republican, but I am an American. Fix your own problems first...sunshine.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not a Republican, but I am an American. Fix your own problems first...sunshine.

This is a problem we all face.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is a problem we all face.

No...this is your joint...not mine. Have fun slaying the data windmills.

[Michael Hardner]

No...this is your joint...not mine. Have fun slaying the data windmills.

I'm tilting at them...

I have an equally hard time convincing Americans as Canadians, so yes we're in the same boat.

Not everything is a national problem. Don't you support the SPP ? The original Bush Cheney did.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm tilting at them...

No, you're tilting at technology.

I have an equally hard time convincing Americans as Canadians, so yes we're in the same boat.

If you need America for gravitas, that is typical around here. We were too busy inventing the Internet, indexed databases, search engines, and PDF file format. Yeah, America is in the same boat...LOL!

Not everything is a national problem. Don't you support the SPP ? The original Bush Cheney did.

I am a nationalist...I don't care if you can't find out how much the dog catcher earned last year online.

[Michael Hardner]

No, you're tilting at technology.

I don't see it that way.

If you need America for gravitas, that is typical around here. We were too busy inventing the Internet, indexed databases, search engines, and PDF file format. Yeah, America is in the same boat...LOL!

And inventing the Sunshine Foundation and spearheading the drive for Open Government. If your ego is so thirsty that you need praise, you can take comfort that Obama prioritized it before Tony Clement did.

I am a nationalist...I don't care if you can't find out how much the dog catcher earned last year online.

Then why are you talking to me here ?

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't see it that way.

Everything can't and shouldn't be "online". Another member astutely pointed out that those who are motivated will mine the data/information without the added expense of posting everything for the few.

And inventing the Sunshine Foundation and spearheading the drive for Open Government. If your ego is so thirsty that you need praise, you can take comfort that Obama prioritized it before Tony Clement did.

I don't need praise, I just laugh at your assertion that the US hasn't actually moved on such things fast enough. It is obvious from my experience here at MLW where the data void exists. 'Tis far easier to find 'merkin data.

Then why are you talking to me here ?

To defend America's honor, sunshine!

[Michael Hardner]

Everything can't and shouldn't be "online". Another member astutely pointed out that those who are motivated will mine the data/information without the added expense of posting everything for the few.

It has also been pointed out that the expense is minor. Those who are motivated do it as a full time job - hence the Sunlight Foundation - and are still stymied.

I don't need praise, I just laugh at your assertion that the US hasn't actually moved on such things fast enough. It is obvious from my experience here at MLW where the data void exists. 'Tis far easier to find 'merkin data.

Although I don't doubt it, I'd like to see a cite for that.

To defend America's honor, sunshine!

Then you do care ! This isn't about America vs. Canada. Whoever breaks open the pinata first will lead the way for the other G8 countries.

[Shwa]

It has also been pointed out that the expense is minor.

Pointed out by whom? I have already asked who would actually review and classify all this data, seeing the sheer volume of it, including archival data and the only response I got back was crickets.

Go figure: if it is that difficult, according to you, with current staffing levels in departmental information management units managing specific requests for information, how are they going to manage putting all of the data out there in public?

Minor expense indeed.