Gee ! 9 0f 20 get Canucks bucks in aid

[bush_cheney2004]

It has also been pointed out that the expense is minor. Those who are motivated do it as a full time job - hence the Sunlight Foundation - and are still stymied.

That assertion wasn't valid then or now, and even if it was, any additional expense detracts from other priorities. In case you haven't noticed while doing all this research, government budgets are tad bit squeezed right now.

Although I don't doubt it, I'd like to see a cite for that.

This web site is your cite....members have routinely presented American data to support their arguments even when the issue is about Canada. Usually starts like, "This is US data, but...."

Then you do care ! This isn't about America vs. Canada. Whoever breaks open the pinata first will lead the way for the other G8 countries.

Great...just what America needs...a Canadian trying to break open the piñata when ours is already open.

[Michael Hardner]

Pointed out by whom? I have already asked who would actually review and classify all this data, seeing the sheer volume of it, including archival data and the only response I got back was crickets.

I believe it was Dre.

If you're publishing data that's already published publicly - but buried 5 levels deep on some web page somewhere - they presumably the data has already been classified. Archival data is a swamp, forget about that.

[Michael Hardner]

That assertion wasn't valid then or now, and even if it was, any additional expense detracts from other priorities. In case you haven't noticed while doing all this research, government budgets are tad bit squeezed right now.

They can make it happen cheaply - see my post above.

This web site is your cite....members have routinely presented American data to support their arguments even when the issue is about Canada. Usually starts like, "This is US data, but...."

You think that's about ease of access to data ? I thought your grand thesis is it's some kind of Canadian envy, not that there's more data available ? Would that be peninsular envy, since America has a Florida and Canada doesn't ?

Great...just what America needs...a Canadian trying to break open the piñata when ours is already open.

Ask the Sunlight Foundation if it's open.

[bush_cheney2004]

They can make it happen cheaply - see my post above.

There is no such thing as cheaply in this sort of thing. Not even if you barcode voter's asses.

You think that's about ease of access to data ? I thought your grand thesis is it's some kind of Canadian envy, not that there's more data available ? Would that be peninsular envy, since America has a Florida and Canada doesn't ?

Data isn't necessarily information, and it costs more to get both the way you want it....easy breezy. Canadian envy is altogther different topic. The truth is that they bang away on America's Google and find it easier to mine 'merkin data, because there's more of it and it's more readily available 'online'.

Ask the Sunlight Foundation if it's open.

Does Canada even have a Sunlight Foundation, or are just playing "me too".

[Michael Hardner]

There is no such thing as cheaply in this sort of thing. Not even if you barcode voter's asses.

They will tell you that because they don't want to do it.

Does Canada even have a Sunlight Foundation, or are just playing "me too".

I think so - but let's use this as an opportunity for you to get excited about Sunlight, if only because Canada doesn't have one.

[Shwa]

I believe it was Dre.

Nope. Dre only suggested easy ways to format and publish the data. Not review and classify it. So then I will put the question to you, as above. Do tell...

If you're publishing data that's already published publicly - but buried 5 levels deep on some web page somewhere - they presumably the data has already been classified.

Optimum "levels" is a guideline Michael, and what might be appealing in a blog simply might not be possible with data contained in some form of native or prorpietary hierarchical structure. Like databases that require queries. Even still, the Project Browser from the CIDA site was a link off their homepage into a query form. That is pretty useable to me.

Archival data is a swamp, forget about that.

[bush_cheney2004]

They will tell you that because they don't want to do it.

Why should they do it...just so a few wonks can browse data in their pajamas? Most people don't care about that level of detail, and sure as hell don't want to pay more for it to exist 'online'.

I think so - but let's use this as an opportunity for you to get excited about Sunlight, if only because Canada doesn't have one.

'Bout this time of year, lots of Canada is missing some sunlight. You will survive, just as before. Remember, reality exists regardless of your access to data proving it.

[Michael Hardner]

Optimum "levels" is a guideline Michael, and what might be appealing in a blog simply might not be possible with data contained in some form of native or prorpietary hierarchical structure. Like databases that require queries. Even still, the Project Browser from the CIDA site was a link off their homepage into a query form. That is pretty useable to me.

You can't really lecture me on usability here. I do this for a living and the sites are just behind the times. To say it was just one page away is like saying a buried treasure is just a few feet under the ground.

Anyway, the point is if the data is already public then they can push it out via XML.

[Michael Hardner]

Why should they do it...just so a few wonks can browse data in their pajamas? Most people don't care about that level of detail, and sure as hell don't want to pay more for it to exist 'online'.

By that logic, why should they tell us anything at all ? We can just base our decisions on the politicians speeches and all will work out fine.

'Bout this time of year, lots of Canada is missing some sunlight. You will survive, just as before. Remember, reality exists regardless of your access to data proving it.

Reality exists, but we live in it less and less.

[bush_cheney2004]

By that logic, why should they tell us anything at all ? We can just base our decisions on the politicians speeches and all will work out fine.

Data and information is processed and made available for private and public function(s). Researchers make a living doing that as a business or academic endeavor. If modern information technology did not exist, would government still be "not telling us anything at all"? Don't confuse content with method.

Reality exists, but we live in it less and less.

If a tree falls in the forest.....

[guyser]

...for you to get excited about Sunlight, if only because Canada doesn't have one.

http://visiblegovernment.ca/

[Michael Hardner]

Data and information is processed and made available for private and public function(s). Researchers make a living doing that as a business or academic endeavor. If modern information technology did not exist, would government still be "not telling us anything at all"? Don't confuse content with method.

If modern information technology didn't exist, we'd be back in the era of the newspaper.

[bush_cheney2004]

If modern information technology didn't exist, we'd be back in the era of the newspaper.

Were citizens clamoring for instant access to data during that age? Were they unwilling to go to the halls of government and mine data the hard way? Or were they more interested in an accurate box score on the sports page?

Data is available...more and more to let your fingertips do the shopping (that may be an Americanism that doesn't translate well)...the glass is more than half full.

[Shwa]

You can't really lecture me on usability here. I do this for a living and the sites are just behind the times. To say it was just one page away is like saying a buried treasure is just a few feet under the ground.

Anyway, the point is if the data is already public then they can push it out via XML.

How do you know that some, part or all of them are not in XML?

[Michael Hardner]

Were citizens clamoring for instant access to data during that age? Were they unwilling to go to the halls of government and mine data the hard way? Or were they more interested in an accurate box score on the sports page?

Aha, now we're starting to get deeper into it. The relationship between the public and its media is complex. The 'newspaper age' didn't require an internet because the bureaucracy was simpler, and newer and times were different. There weren't the complexities and the entitlements we have today. Furthermore, media was more inclined to report dry facts back then.

The challenge of managing government changed over time, as did media. And the internet, like many media in the past, seemed to arrive just in time to solve the problem.

Data is available...more and more to let your fingertips do the shopping (that may be an Americanism that doesn't translate well)...the glass is more than half full.

We have people working full time to mine it, and they're even having trouble.

[Michael Hardner]

How do you know that some, part or all of them are not in XML?

Pushing a single report to XML takes how long ? If you make it a priority to create public reports in XML format moving forward, that's only a small change to creating reports in pure HTML.

[Shwa]

Pushing a single report to XML takes how long ? If you make it a priority to create public reports in XML format moving forward, that's only a small change to creating reports in pure HTML.

Besides completely ignoring whole imporant factors, like infrastructure and bandwidth, you didn't answer my question.

[Shwa]

The 'newspaper age' didn't require an internet because the bureaucracy was simpler, and newer and times were different. There weren't the complexities and the entitlements we have today. Furthermore, media was more inclined to report dry facts back then.

Really? What movie did you see this in?

[Michael Hardner]

Besides completely ignoring whole imporant factors, like infrastructure and bandwidth, you didn't answer my question.

Sorry - I don't know that they're not in XML now.

Infrastructure/bandwidth - it likely wouldn't challenge current planning around loads, since as we've all agreed here only 'wonks' will be interested.

[Michael Hardner]

Really? What movie did you see this in?

Have you ever seen a TV news report from 20-30 years ago ? It's quite informative to do so. The pieces are longer, and more serious.

[Shwa]

Have you ever seen a TV news report from 20-30 years ago ? It's quite informative to do so. The pieces are longer, and more serious.

So are you saying there are no longer, more serious pieces anymore?

[Michael Hardner]

So are you saying there are no longer, more serious pieces anymore?

They have been greatly reduced to make the news more salesworthy, i.e. entertainment. This is well documented in Neil Postman's landmark book 'Amusing Ourselves to Death'. Also, investigative journalism is not funded to the same level - and the press relies more on repackaging press releases.

Things change, and media and government have changed quite a bit since the 1950s. Government provides more services, and is more complex to manage. There are more details and complexity around delivering services than there were 50 years ago.

All of these changes represent challenges to the democratic model. Toynbee's model of history saw all of history as a series of challenges and responses. To my mind the issues we're seeing with government now represent a challenge that require a new response.

[Michael Hardner]

...to add - none of these issues should be seen as ideological. You hear just as much squawking about problems from the left as from the right - but there seems to be frustration that these issues can't be resolved.

In reality, it's a matter of the mechanisms of government and democracy needing some kind of update.

[scribblet]

Good piece here by B. Lilley - so why are we giving China money - again?

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/10/time-has-come-to-get-tough-with-china

[Guest Peeves]

Good piece here by B. Lilley - so why are we giving China money - again?

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/10/time-has-come-to-get-tough-with-china

If any country is dumber on this subject than Canada, it's the USA.

"The Americans also give aid to China which in essence means they borrow money from China in order to give money back to China."

If anything, I'm more concerned about the quasi political pundits and self styled intelligentsia that attempt to justify aid to countries in the G20 than I am of the government that seemingly finds no end to things on which they can waste tax dollars.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Peeves