GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjf3jgsKJQ4 Mike gets it right here, in my view. Quote
kactus Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 The whole thing is a shamble... If the greeks decide to default which effectively means it will happen next year it will become bankrupt...No doubt about this. But imagine if UK decided to opt out of Euro zone tomorrow. Let's consider the non-monetary implications. people will have to queue in non-euro immigration area to get their passports stamped for a visit to let's say Costa del sol... Quote
blueblood Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 The whole thing is a shamble... If the greeks decide to default which effectively means it will happen next year it will become bankrupt...No doubt about this. But imagine if UK decided to opt out of Euro zone tomorrow. Let's consider the non-monetary implications. people will have to queue in non-euro immigration area to get their passports stamped for a visit to let's say Costa del sol... Except the uk still uses the pound sterling instead of the euro Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Boges Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) I don't think the UK is part of the EU. Nice try though. Now Ireland on the otherhand. Edited November 2, 2011 by Boges Quote
kactus Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Except the uk still uses the pound sterling instead of the euro Yeah...but I said the non-monetary implications for opting out of euro zone... Hence the example about the british tourists visiting other EU countries when on holiday. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Except the uk still uses the pound sterling instead of the euro One of the biggest proponents back in the day towards the EU and they end up keeping their own currency. Maybe they had seen all this coming? Quote
wyly Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 I don't think the UK is part of the EU. UK isn't part of the EU? nice try but wrong... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 One of the biggest proponents back in the day towards the EU and they end up keeping their own currency. Maybe they had seen all this coming? from my inexpert opinion I think the problem here was the unification was a half way measure, common currencies with no way to disconnect them should one or two countries mess up...the fiscally competent countries had no way to control the reckless spending of the others as a result the irresponsible countries are damaging the stable ones...they needed to have a common law in place restricting spending in each country, forbidding deficits over x percentage of GDP or whatever... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Not everyone thinks it is a bad idea. Mark Carney carney has to say that because of his position he can't take a political stance critical of any government... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 carney has to say that because of his position he can't take a political stance critical of any government... Well its also objectively true. This plan to rescue Greece from its debt by lending it a whole bunch more money is exactly the kind of thing that people should have some say in. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Well its also objectively true. This plan to rescue Greece from its debt by lending it a whole bunch more money is exactly the kind of thing that people should have some say in. We can solve the debt problem by creating more debt. Quote
dre Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) We can solve the debt problem by creating more debt. You can certainly delay it. Picture a person who has maxed out all his credit cards, and is unable to even make big enough payments to cover the interest. Hes in trouble. Now... if he got another card, he could stave off insolvency for a while by using that new card to make the payments on all the old cards. But when all is said and done, hes pretty much in the same place. Edited November 2, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 You can certainly delay it. Picture a person who has maxed out all his credit cards, and is unable to even make big enough payments to cover the interest. Hes in trouble. Now... if he got another card, he could stave off insolvency for a while by using that new card to make the payments on the old card. But when all is said and done, hes pretty much in the same place. I dated a girl that had 3 credit cards and transferred the debt from one card to the other every month. Never tackling the debt itself. Hopefully she learned her lesson. But I doubt it. I did learn my lesson. I have been debt free for the past couple years now. It took me close to 8 years to get out of that debt, and I suffered a bit through it. I did get some help from my family, which was greatly appreciated. If I had not dealt with the debt when I did, I would be out on the streets at the moment. Yes it can be delayed, but we know typically what happens when problems like this are dealt with by procrastination. Quote
wyly Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 We can solve the debt problem by creating more debt. but they're cutting their debt in half...you or I should be so lucky if our finances were in such a state...forgive half my debt? I'd take that in a heartbeat... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 I dated a girl that had 3 credit cards and transferred the debt from one card to the other every month. Never tackling the debt itself. Hopefully she learned her lesson. But I doubt it. I did learn my lesson. I have been debt free for the past couple years now. It took me close to 8 years to get out of that debt, and I suffered a bit through it. I did get some help from my family, which was greatly appreciated. If I had not dealt with the debt when I did, I would be out on the streets at the moment. Yes it can be delayed, but we know typically what happens when problems like this are dealt with by procrastination. Good for you GH. Im basically in Greeces boat . I carry way too much debt. I didnt waste the money I borrowed at least, I have my home and two other properties as assets but if realestate tanks Im finished. I have no credit card debt or high ineterest debt at least. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 You can certainly delay it. Picture a person who has maxed out all his credit cards, and is unable to even make big enough payments to cover the interest. Hes in trouble. Now... if he got another card, he could stave off insolvency for a while by using that new card to make the payments on all the old cards. But when all is said and done, hes pretty much in the same place. but people aren't countries, it's apple and oranges comparison...an individual goes bankrupt it only effects him/her...if the country goes bankrupt everyone loses their public sector job, everyone loses their state pension...and then it spreads to other countries who have been fiscally responsible.... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Good for you GH. Im basically in Greeces boat . I carry way too much debt. I didnt waste the money I borrowed at least, I have my home and two other properties as assets but if realestate tanks Im finished. I have no credit card debt or high ineterest debt at least. Property is an asset, because well it should accumulate in value. Once those are paid off, it's all good. And if you have no other debt, then you are in good shape. I am debt free, but I have no assets, and I rent the apartment I live in. Quote
dre Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 but they're cutting their debt in half...you or I should be so lucky if our finances were in such a state...forgive half my debt? I'd take that in a heartbeat... They are cutting "private debt" in half is what Iv read. Im unclear on how much of the total that is. But then they also want Greece to borrow a whole bunch more money on top of that. Theyre willing to eat some of the debt probably for two reasons. First of all they would obviously like Greece to stay in the system forever and surrender a heft percentage of its GDP to international bankers every year until the end of time. But secondly my guess is that the holders of this debt didnt put up much in the way of real property to start with. Most of these loans are capitalized by monetary expansion (currency debasement), not real wealth that actually exists. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 but they're cutting their debt in half...you or I should be so lucky if our finances were in such a state...forgive half my debt? I'd take that in a heartbeat... How are they cutting the debt in half? Who is forgiving them for this debt? How do you cut your debt in half by borrowing more money and putting in austerity measures? Who's pockets are that big to day .. sure you don't have to pay half the debt. Kicking the can down the road still means there is a can to deal with down the road. With each kick, that can gets bigger. Soon you won't be able to kick it at all, it's too big. Quote
dre Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_economic_crisis_(1999%E2%80%932002) Theres a good read on what a default is likely to look like. Its not pretty but in the end good things can happen when you extract yourself from the global debt scam. When Argentina defaulted there was a lot of short term pain. Foreign investors abandoned the nation, currency values plummeted, and people took to the streets because the government froze the nations bank accounts for year besides small withdrawals. But then... The low value of the currency increased domestic production, discouraged imports, and helped bring tourists back. Argentina has managed to return to growth with surprising strength; the GDP jumped 8.8% in 2003, 9.0% in 2004, 9.2% in 2005, 8.5% in 2006 and 8.7% in 2007. Its amazing what can happen when your economy is based on the populations ability to produce REAL GOODS AND SERVICES, instead of borrowing fake money from internation shysters. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
blueblood Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Property is an asset, because well it should accumulate in value. Once those are paid off, it's all good. And if you have no other debt, then you are in good shape. I am debt free, but I have no assets, and I rent the apartment I live in. Property is a speculative asset. It can go up or down. The crappy thing about urban real estate is its hard to get any production out of it. Its like owning apple stock. If I owned multiple pieces of urban real estate, I would short now and get out of debt. If you are debt free, then you get to enjoy the high interest rates coming. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Property is a speculative asset. It can go up or down. The crappy thing about urban real estate is its hard to get any production out of it. Its like owning apple stock. If I owned multiple pieces of urban real estate, I would short now and get out of debt. Well typically real estate accumulates in value. Sure there are exceptions. If you are debt free, then you get to enjoy the high interest rates coming. So because I got my financial house in order I am going to suffer if I happen to borrow money later on down the road? If I stay in debt I am able to take 'advantage' of low interest rates? How does this make sense? Maybe you can explain some more? Quote
blueblood Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_economic_crisis_(1999%E2%80%932002) Theres a good read on what a default is likely to look like. Its not pretty but in the end good things can happen when you extract yourself from the global debt scam. When Argentina defaulted there was a lot of short term pain. Foreign investors abandoned the nation, currency values plummeted, and people took to the streets because the government froze the nations bank accounts for year besides small withdrawals. But then... The low value of the currency increased domestic production, discouraged imports, and helped bring tourists back. Its amazing what can happen when your economy is based on the populations ability to produce REAL GOODS AND SERVICES, instead of borrowing fake money from internation shysters. Argentina happens to sit on some of the worlds best farmland and had a population willing to work for chump change. Greece sits on rock and has an entitled population.big difference. Tourism is a non factor to an economy like argentina. Oh and we have inflation north of 9 percent in argentina as well, there's a hangovre coming... Edited November 2, 2011 by blueblood Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
blueblood Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 Well typically real estate accumulates in value. Sure there are exceptions. So because I got my financial house in order I am going to suffer if I happen to borrow money later on down the road? If I stay in debt I am able to take 'advantage' of low interest rates? How does this make sense? Maybe you can explain some more? No no, you literally get to enjoy high interest rates because you will be rewarded more for saving money in the bank, by the bank paying out higher intererst to encourage people to save. Not to mention the falling prices of things because other people will have a harder time borrowing money to pay for said things. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
GostHacked Posted November 2, 2011 Report Posted November 2, 2011 No no, you literally get to enjoy high interest rates because you will be rewarded more for saving money in the bank, by the bank paying out higher intererst to encourage people to save. Not to mention the falling prices of things because other people will have a harder time borrowing money to pay for said things. Hmm, that makes sense to me. Also makes me a little happy! Quote
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