"Social Investing"

[Michael Hardner]

Hiring those with the skills to get those high paying jobs. People wishing for yesterday's jobs and pay to come back are only kidding themselves and losing more ground every day. If you can't see them, maybe you don't know where to look.

Hiring those with the skills to get those high paying jobs ? What does that mean ?

What high paying jobs is my question - you can't deny that high paying manufacturing jobs are being replaced with lower paying jobs, otherwise where is the middle class going ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Hiring those with the skills to get those high paying jobs ? What does that mean ?

It means that candidates with the right skill set can compete for plumb jobs. Long gone are the days of union cradle-to-grave protection and job security. Labor has gone global, and is much more portable. Some people never read the memo.

What high paying jobs is my question - you can't deny that high paying manufacturing jobs are being replaced with lower paying jobs, otherwise where is the middle class going ?

Of course I can deny that. There are literally thousands of unfilled manufacturing jobs because some people never upgraded their skills (e.g. CNC machine tools, computer competence, mathematics, robotics, digital inspection systems, etc.). You have to be smarter than a machine.

[Michael Hardner]

Of course I can deny that. There are literally thousands of unfilled manufacturing jobs because some people never upgraded their skills (e.g. CNC machine tools, computer competence, mathematics, robotics, digital inspection systems, etc.). You have to be smarter than a machine.

Ok - then why is the middle class disappearing ? What is happening to high-paying jobs, I ask you.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok - then why is the middle class disappearing ? What is happening to high-paying jobs, I ask you.

The middle class is not disappearing....it is being redefined to include domestic and foreign labor on a global scale. Globalization means you will have to update those antiquated terms.

High paying jobs still exist....for those who can adapt, not those who won't.

[blueblood]

Ok - then why is the middle class disappearing ? What is happening to high-paying jobs, I ask you.

The market is reallocating those jobs based on demand. Lots of jobs in ag, silicon valley, coal mining, bakken oil field, etc. The monkey wrench manufacturing jobs are going to Asia where the cost of production is lower.

The middle class isn't disappearing, the rest of the world is joining the American middle class.

[Michael Hardner]

The middle class is not disappearing....it is being redefined to include domestic and foreign labor on a global scale. Globalization means you will have to update those antiquated terms.

Ok.... so domestic middle class is disappearing then. I can agree to that.

High paying jobs still exist....for those who can adapt, not those who won't.

Whether or not they won't/will can't/don't ... they aren't.

[Michael Hardner]

The market is reallocating those jobs based on demand. Lots of jobs in ag, silicon valley, coal mining, bakken oil field, etc. The monkey wrench manufacturing jobs are going to Asia where the cost of production is lower.

The middle class isn't disappearing, the rest of the world is joining the American middle class.

Right... but middle class in America is disappearing. Can we at least agree on that ? I'm not moralizing here, I'm talking about economic reality.

[eyeball]

Hiring those with the skills to get those high paying jobs. People wishing for yesterday's jobs and pay to come back are only kidding themselves and losing more ground every day. If you can't see them, maybe you don't know where to look.

I think people are wishing for at least some of yesterday's rules. As Michael pointed out so many have been changed with the result being the game is now rigged against some 95% or more of society.

In terms of lost ground, what's really lost is the natural capital the game is based on but we might as well wish for spilled milk to unspill itself now. Liquidity is a bitch.

Edited October 29, 2011 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok.... so domestic middle class is disappearing then. I can agree to that.

Good...we have updated your perspective and data domain to include the rest of the world, including other countries like the United States.

Whether or not they won't/will can't/don't ... they aren't.

That's right...excuses are for the losers.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think people are wishing for at least some of yesterday's rules. As Michael pointed out so many have been changed with the result being the game is now rigged against some 95% or more of society.

But that is just more of the same self pity. The new rules are that the old rules don't apply anymore. Those who don't adapt to this reality can't reasonably expect, let alone demand, "high paying jobs" as in the old days.

In terms of lost ground, what's really lost is the natural capital the game is based on but we might as well wish for spilled milk to unspill itself now. Liquidity is a bitch.

That's right...the fish are not coming back either!

[Michael Hardner]

Good...we have updated your perspective and data domain to include the rest of the world, including other countries like the United States.

You may not have noticed that I'm not an isolationist when it comes to trade. It's been great for other countries, but...

That's right...excuses are for the losers.

...there do appear to be a lot of losers. The previous system paid high salaries for people who were willing to work and smart enough to fill out an application form. Do you think they'll just accept their fate now ? Or will they blame someone else for their problems ? What will be the political fallout ?

[bush_cheney2004]

You may not have noticed that I'm not an isolationist when it comes to trade. It's been great for other countries, but...

Yes, but despite that, you still lament for what has gone before, when that period is over, as it should be. It was not all peaches and cream for the "losers" of that time.

...there do appear to be a lot of losers. The previous system paid high salaries for people who were willing to work and smart enough to fill out an application form. Do you think they'll just accept their fate now ? Or will they blame someone else for their problems ? What will be the political fallout ?

Doesn't matter...they can pitch a political fit all they want but that will not change the global calculus. I began working with India and China as a "novelty" over 15 years ago....now it is routine and expected.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, but despite that, you still lament for what has gone before, when that period is over, as it should be. It was not all peaches and cream for the "losers" of that time.

Lament is too strong a word. You can miss the past, be nostalgic, ruminate on it... without lamenting it. Turning back the clock is not an option, however history is a succession of challenges and responses to those challenges.

Doesn't matter...they can pitch a political fit all they want but that will not change the global calculus. I began working with India and China as a "novelty" over 15 years ago....now it is routine and expected.

So history has stopped then ? I don't think so. Let's be realistic now - what is going to happen to these millions of "whiners" ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Lament is too strong a word. You can miss the past, be nostalgic, ruminate on it... without lamenting it. Turning back the clock is not an option, however history is a succession of challenges and responses to those challenges.

OK...what is important is the recognition of what has passed, the present, and potential future. Past tense references to middle class benchmarks are for the history books, not employment today.

So history has stopped then ? I don't think so. Let's be realistic now - what is going to happen to these millions of "whiners" ?

Again, I challenge you to consider that politics is not immune from the very same dynamics. You are trying to predict the future based on past events. The "whiners" will disperse into survivors, state supported losers, and those who finally figure it out.

[Michael Hardner]

OK...what is important is the recognition of what has passed, the present, and potential future. Past tense references to middle class benchmarks are for the history books, not employment today.

You don't need history books if you can still *remember* a time when those jobs were there.

Again, I challenge you to consider that politics is not immune from the very same dynamics. You are trying to predict the future based on past events. The "whiners" will disperse into survivors, state supported losers, and those who finally figure it out.

You're putting your head in the sand now. I don't think that such changes will happen without a political change and this is what we're seeing now. Nothing about moralizing, what is "fair", or what is "right" is required to see that. People won't just sit by and accept it, nor will they pick up their socks and work for poverty wages with a smile.

There seems to be an opinion that more tax cuts will bring good jobs back, but I don't see that happening either. Nor does taxing the poor, as Cain et al are proposing work either. These ideas are running out of runway.

[bush_cheney2004]

You don't need history books if you can still *remember* a time when those jobs were there.

To quote a famous movie line from Cannonball Run, "What is in my rear view mirror is not important".

You're putting your head in the sand now. I don't think that such changes will happen without a political change and this is what we're seeing now. Nothing about moralizing, what is "fair", or what is "right" is required to see that. People won't just sit by and accept it, nor will they pick up their socks and work for poverty wages with a smile.

Some will...some won't. Economics drives the game, not politics...always has. Some people think their "vote" can change this, but it can't.

There seems to be an opinion that more tax cuts will bring good jobs back, but I don't see that happening either. Nor does taxing the poor, as Cain et al are proposing work either. These ideas are running out of runway.

The entire entitlement concept has to be revisited as it is unsustainable. References to earlier "good times" refuse to embrace the fewer government programs that existed and smaller percentage of GDP as well. Why is that?

Edited October 29, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

To quote a famous movie line from Cannonball Run, "What is in my rear view mirror is not important".

Not to you, because you're a winner. But some others may wonder where their jobs went.

Some will...some won't. Economics drives the game, not politics...always has. Some people think their "vote" can change this, but it can't.

What drives economics ? Politics. Who lobbies Washington ? Business. Why ? Economics.

The entire entitlement concept has to be revisited as it is unsustainable. References to earlier "good times" refuse to embrace the fewer government programs that existed and smaller percentage of GDP as well. Why is that?

It's unsustainable because the country can't or won't afford it any more.

Here's government spending as a % of GDP: Wiki

[blueblood]

Right... but middle class in America is disappearing. Can we at least agree on that ? I'm not moralizing here, I'm talking about economic reality.

Now what is your metrics for middle class? I think that question needs to be addresses first. How does a poor person in the USA stack up to one elsewhere in the world?

I see Americans working for the Same wages, yet being able to acquire more goods for cheaper. Look at the fifties for example, Tvs used to be expensive and a person could only afford one. Now lots of people have tvs in their kids rooms. If that's middle class, they're better off than they were in the fifties providing they steered clear of too much debt.

Or is your issue that there are not enough people cracking 6 digit salaries and not in the 1% club.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not to you, because you're a winner. But some others may wonder where their jobs went.

You keep making the same "error"...the jobs don't belong to me or them. Adapt and compete...or lose ground.

What drives economics ? Politics. Who lobbies Washington ? Business. Why ? Economics.

Not sure we agree....politics dies on the vine when economics goes dry. This is not a chicken and egg argument. Let the Petrograd bread riots begin.

It's unsustainable because the country can't or won't afford it any more.

Here's government spending as a % of GDP: Wiki

Not the right answer...look at government entitlement programs as a percentage of GDP:

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/entitlements-consume-economy

This is a math problem more than a political problem....your mileage may vary in Canada.

Edited October 29, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Now what is your metrics for middle class? I think that question needs to be addresses first. How does a poor person in the USA stack up to one elsewhere in the world?

Relative to the US of course. I don't think Americans will accept being told that they're richer than those in other countries.

I see Americans working for the Same wages, yet being able to acquire more goods for cheaper. Look at the fifties for example, Tvs used to be expensive and a person could only afford one. Now lots of people have tvs in their kids rooms. If that's middle class, they're better off than they were in the fifties providing they steered clear of too much debt.

Or is your issue that there are not enough people cracking 6 digit salaries and not in the 1% club.

It's not about what's fair, not fair or what have you - it's about what plays politically. I believe that folks think that more tax cuts will get them back to their 6 digit salaries but I don't think it will.

[Michael Hardner]

You keep making the same "error"...the jobs don't belong to me or them. Adapt and compete...or lose ground.

What's in *your* rear view mirror was what you said. You don't seem to have the pulse of the people as much as you think you do, as I don't see tea partiers or occupiers saying "oh well... guess we can't compete"

Not sure we agree....politics dies on the vine when economics goes dry. This is not a chicken and egg argument. Let the Petrograd bread riots begin.

Protectionism can still happen, though.

Not the right answer...look at government entitlement programs as a percentage of GDP:

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/entitlements-consume-economy

This is a math problem more than a political problem.

Spoken like a true technocrat. I don't see a lot of reason on the news channels though, just a lot of emotion.

[bush_cheney2004]

What's in *your* rear view mirror was what you said. You don't seem to have the pulse of the people as much as you think you do, as I don't see tea partiers or occupiers saying "oh well... guess we can't compete"

I can only speak for myself and my observed reality....in the United States. I do not speak for others and certainly not for what may happen in Canada.

Protectionism can still happen, though.

Just a short term speed bump.

Spoken like a true technocrat. I don't see a lot of reason on the news channels though, just a lot of emotion.

That's fine by me...let them go through the phases of mourning as needed...those of us who didn't/don't will have an advantage. I am not an emotional guy....when somebody dies...I get a shovel.

What's missing in this fun discussion is the perspective of the so called "lower class" and truly poor (few Americans or Canadians qualify as "poor" on a world scale).

Edited October 29, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[blueblood]

Relative to the US of course. I don't think Americans will accept being told that they're richer than those in other countries.

It's not about what's fair, not fair or what have you - it's about what plays politically. I believe that folks think that more tax cuts will get them back to their 6 digit salaries but I don't think it will.

Judging by the video with the banker going to OWS, I'd say your right there, some people are still clinging to the shock factor of market readjustment and aren't familiar with that. And can't blame them, it's been good time Charlie in the USA since Reagan took office.

Those tax cuts take time to work through the market, and that's what I think left of centre people get frustrated with - the time it takes the market to adjust to change. Those same people vote in other people who believe they can use gov't power to make changes in the market quickly, but that doesn't work or has unintended consequences I.e. Housing bubble. I think the tax cuts will work, just not at the speed that you would like.

[Michael Hardner]

What's missing in this fun discussion is the perspective of the so called "lower class" and truly poor (few Americans or Canadians qualify as "poor" on a world scale).

I don't think we can provide that... but keep watching.

[Michael Hardner]

I think the tax cuts will work, just not at the speed that you would like.

You think that high salary jobs will come back again without government intervention ? I don't.