OCCUPY

[Guest Derek L]

Yes you're right Derek. Different context in Arab countries. Same underlying issues though.

Greed for money driving dictators to imprison and murder dissenters.

And it's also true that North American corporations profit from the murder of dissenters, mostly young adults.

As someone pointed out a while back, the life we enjoy is subsidized by the bullets killing Arab youth. Greed for resources (money) pays the war industries to help dictators kill people who oppose them, mostly youth.

Young people are organizing everywhere in support and to honour their counterparts, the youth of the Arab world who are fighting back against oppressive regimes and the corporations that support them.

Apples and oranges ... but the struggle for the Middle East has to continue here.

It's really all about greed and power that violate human rights for profit, here there and everywhere.

Those same profits that you seem to oppose, are also taxed to pay for the social programs that benefits everyone in this country……….lose the money, lose the benefits.

To vote for representatives who put people ahead of profit and power.

We'd like that opportunity too.

Who's stopping you? Not to sound sarcastic or crass, but based on the rather small showing of the occupy movement, has it occurred to you that perhaps you’re in a very small minority of the “99%”, and the real majority is either content or indifferent?

[Bonam]

I prefer camping out in the summer... in the middle of nowhere, not in a city

Winter camping can be fun too. But definitely agreed on the middle of nowhere Why someone would want to camp out on a dirty city street is beyond me.

[Guest Derek L]

Riiight

Who’s preventing them? The Tea Party started much the same size, and has since grafted itself onto the GOP, and achieved positive results in the last election.

[Guest Derek L]

Because it's probably fake.

If she was a real teacher, she'd be fired for that comment.

What makes you think it's a fake?

And would she really be fired for her comments?

[Guest Derek L]

Winter camping can be fun too. But definitely agreed on the middle of nowhere Why someone would want to camp out on a dirty city street is beyond me.

Agreed……..Roughing it in Northern BC well hunting in November is rather serene…….A warm wool sweater, long johns and coffee made over a fire……..nothing better

[The_Squid]

Right-wingers like to classify the protestors as worthless bums with no jobs. This might be the case for a very small percentage of them. Mostly they seem to be folks frustrated with the status quo, whether they are protesting corporate greed, the bought and paid for political system, or whatever else has them feeling the need to protest. Btw, the best thing Chretien ever did was to publicly finance elections.... But that's an aside....

The only way for these protests to have a lasting outcome is if they follow the "tea party" lead and vote. Become a political movement, not just some disenfranchised rabble-rousers. Voting is the only way to change the status quo. And when 50% stay home (most of whom are young people more likely to be left-leaning) because they feel apathetic or disenfranchised, then they have essentially given away their hard-earned (by others) democratic rights to have a say in how they will be governed.

[Guest Derek L]

Right-wingers like to classify the protestors as worthless bums with no jobs. This might be the case for a very small percentage of them. Mostly they seem to be folks frustrated with the status quo, whether they are protesting corporate greed, the bought and paid for political system, or whatever else has them feeling the need to protest. Btw, the best thing Chretien ever did was to publicly finance elections.... But that's an aside....

The only way for these protests to have a lasting outcome is if they follow the "tea party" lead and vote. Become a political movement, not just some disenfranchised rabble-rousers. Voting is the only way to change the status quo. And when 50% stay home (most of whom are young people more likely to be left-leaning) because they feel apathetic or disenfranchised, then they have essentially given away their hard-earned (by others) democratic rights to have a say in how they will be governed.

I’m a right winger, and don’t consider these protestors as “bums”, I’d think more of along the lines of “brats”, but that’s neither here nor there……….I agree with you though on your point about getting out and voting…….sure they might be a small percentage of the population, I’m certain the political parties would welcome them……fresh sets of legs to do door knocking, sign post hanging and flyer handing out are always welcomed……….I’d think they would be especially welcome in the smaller progressive parties like the Greens for example……and due to it being a smaller party, their voice would go farther on deciding policy and platform.

[Bryan]

I don't have a problem with peaceful protests that have a specific message. If it's a cohesive argument aimed at a specific possible change for a rational reason, go to it. Doesn't matter if I or anyone else shares your point of view, if you have a point, make it.

This "Occupy" movement in Canada? I don't see any of that. What is it that they are specifically trying to accomplish? It's scattershot and non-sensical.

[jacee]

Those same profits that you seem to oppose, are also taxed to pay for the social programs that benefits everyone in this country……….lose the money, lose the benefits.

Corporations in Canada pay the same rate of taxes as people on welfare. Deduct corporate subsidies and they are paying nothing in taxes, or less.

Who's stopping you? Not to sound sarcastic or crass, but based on the rather small showing of the occupy movement, has it occurred to you that perhaps you’re in a very small minority of the “99%”, and the real majority is either content or indifferent?

Dream on ...

[Guest Derek L]

Corporations in Canada pay the same rate of taxes as people on welfare. Deduct corporate subsidies and they are paying nothing in taxes, or less.

Who's stopping you? Not to sound sarcastic or crass, but based on the rather small showing of the occupy movement, has it occurred to you that perhaps you’re in a very small minority of the “99%”, and the real majority is either content or indifferent?

Dream on ...

You’re wrong about corporations……..in effect they “don’t pay any taxes”……….additional costs are just passed onto the consumer…….If taxes, rules and/or regulations become too draconian and the game is no longer worth the candle, they leave.

I'll still ask the same question though......has it crossed your mind that, maybe, based on the limited showing of the protestors, that you are in fact the real 1%ers (well 0.0001%ers)?

Edited October 18, 2011 by Derek L

[jacee]

Those same profits that you seem to oppose, are also taxed to pay for the social programs that benefits everyone in this country……….lose the money, lose the benefits.

Corporations in Canada pay the same rate of taxes as people on welfare. Deduct corporate subsidies and they are paying nothing in taxes, or less.

Who's stopping you?

From voting for reps who put people before greed and power?

See capricorn's signature.

Not to sound sarcastic or crass, but based on the rather small showing of the occupy movement, has it occurred to you that perhaps you’re in a very small minority of the “99%”, and the real majority is either content or indifferent?

Dream on ...

[Guest Derek L]

Corporations in Canada pay the same rate of taxes as people on welfare. Deduct corporate subsidies and they are paying nothing in taxes, or less.

From voting for reps who put people before greed and power?

See capricorn's signature.

Dream on ...

Let’s use some basic math….Canada has a population of ~34619000.……1% of that is 346190 “fat cats”……..we’ve had at the peak of the occupy movement, about 4000 thousands protestors in each major city……let’s say that number stands……there’s been what? 10? 20? 30? Cities with such a movement…….Let’s assume 30 cities, with 4000 per…….that’s 120000 people across Canada…….Now let’s double that number for all those occupiers that couldn’t come out, be it for their parents wouldn’t let them, they were in prison, “visiting” some form of institute etc………That’s still only ~240000 occupiers…..still short of the numbers of “Fat Cats”………Now why is it they feel the rest of Canadians want to change our current economic system and/or they represent the 99%……..Being generous, they don’t even make-up 1%

[jacee]

OK now this topic has bein brewing for at least a couple of weeks now.

And I am totaly suprised nobody has started this thread in Canadian Federal politics yet on MLW?!?

Its about freekin time the left started getting vocal in the streets with this peacful protest!

There's a thread in progress

Here

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19336&st=900

and one here

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19618&pid=720168&st=45entry720168

Edited October 18, 2011 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

Let’s use some basic math….Canada has a population of ~34619000.……1% of that is 346190 “fat cats”……..we’ve had at the peak of the occupy movement, about 4000 thousands protestors in each major city……let’s say that number stands……there’s been what? 10? 20? 30? Cities with such a movement…….Let’s assume 30 cities, with 4000 per…….that’s 120000 people across Canada…….Now let’s double that number for all those occupiers that couldn’t come out, be it for their parents wouldn’t let them, they were in prison, “visiting” some form of institute etc………That’s still only ~240000 occupiers…..still short of the numbers of “Fat Cats”………Now why is it they feel the rest of Canadians want to change our current economic system and/or they represent the 99%……..Being generous, they don’t even make-up 1%

Another perspective to look at……….Scouts Canada has just over 100k members and volunteers across Canada, the Girl Guides have another 110k members…….That’s more than double the amount of protestors at it’s peak………They sleep in tents in rain…….help protect the environment….and sell very tasting cookies to help fund their organizations……..there is no inequality, doesn’t mater if you’re rich or poor……the colour of your skin, or the religion you practice etc…..Why aren’t we giving more “face-time” to the Scouts and Girl Guides? The values they espouse are positive……

[jacee]

Another perspective to look at……….Scouts Canada has just over 100k members and volunteers across Canada, the Girl Guides have another 110k members…….That’s more than double the amount of protestors at it’s peak………They sleep in tents in rain…….help protect the environment….and sell very tasting cookies to help fund their organizations……..there is no inequality, doesn’t mater if you’re rich or poor……the colour of your skin, or the religion you practice etc…..Why aren’t we giving more “face-time” to the Scouts and Girl Guides? The values they espouse are positive……

If that's what you want to do, go for it.

By a 67 – 23 percent margin, New York City voters agree with the views of the Wal Street protesters and say 87 – 10 percent that it is “okay that they are protesting,” according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today

http://htpolitics.com/2011/10/17/poll-two-thirds-of-new-yorkers-support-occupy-wall-street-protests/

[Shwa]

Let’s use some basic math….Canada has a population of ~34619000.……1% of that is 346190 “fat cats”……..we’ve had at the peak of the occupy movement, about 4000 thousands protestors in each major city……let’s say that number stands……there’s been what? 10? 20? 30? Cities with such a movement…….Let’s assume 30 cities, with 4000 per…….that’s 120000 people across Canada…….Now let’s double that number for all those occupiers that couldn’t come out, be it for their parents wouldn’t let them, they were in prison, “visiting” some form of institute etc………That’s still only ~240000 occupiers…..still short of the numbers of “Fat Cats”………Now why is it they feel the rest of Canadians want to change our current economic system and/or they represent the 99%……..Being generous, they don’t even make-up 1%

Your "basic math" works because you have framed the question simplistically and ignored quite a few factors, among them the multi-national nature of many of the corporations which tap the wealth of Canada.

The biggest problem is that you are taking the concept of the 1% literally and by doing so, hope to show that it doesn't apply in Canada. But it is only a matter of degrees and the 1/99% is a symbol for the spreading income gaps in Canada, which is worse that in the US apparently.

From Sept: Income inequality rising quickly in Canada

From 2008: Income gaps grow, as Canada's have-nots get left behind

No one, well practically no one, is denying that people should not be rewarded for their work, or be highly paid for a job well done or that people should have nice things. However, you must admit that when we are constanly being bombarded with constant messages about austerity, cutbacks, poor economic performance, a worsening recession, you might well understand that those poor, who are getting poorer, are eventually going to speak up especially when they see bullshit like the police suppression at the G20, perceive that the rules are constantly being tilted toward the rich, government spending scandals, and so on.

[mentalfloss]

Let’s use some basic math….Canada has a population of ~34619000.……1% of that is 346190 “fat cats”……..we’ve had at the peak of the occupy movement, about 4000 thousands protestors in each major city……let’s say that number stands……there’s been what? 10? 20? 30? Cities with such a movement…….Let’s assume 30 cities, with 4000 per…….that’s 120000 people across Canada…….Now let’s double that number for all those occupiers that couldn’t come out, be it for their parents wouldn’t let them, they were in prison, “visiting” some form of institute etc………That’s still only ~240000 occupiers…..still short of the numbers of “Fat Cats”………Now why is it they feel the rest of Canadians want to change our current economic system and/or they represent the 99%……..Being generous, they don’t even make-up 1%

Let's use some basic math here.

Your post makes 0% sense.

[lukin]

Here's a snapshot of the typical protestor. Not really any surprises. Typical clueless freeloaders.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/clueless-revolution/1223435745001

Edited October 18, 2011 by lukin

[g_bambino]

Cops have bikes.

Is there a point somewhere in that glib retort?

[Rick]

Here's a snapshot of the typical protestor. Not really any surprises. Typical clueless freeloaders.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/clueless-revolution/1223435745001

Sun news = right wing Propoganda...

Goebbels would be proud of the Sun for studying his ways.

"“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

[lukin]

Sun news = right wing Propoganda...

Oh...the people they interviewed for this segment weren't real.......oh....

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to quote the left wing talking point about Sun News...thanks Rick.

CBC= state sponsored left wing propaganda......so what's your point. At least Sun News isn't chewing on the government teat.

Anyways, the protestors in the video are a good representation of what these useless protests are all about.

[Rick]

Oh...the people they interviewed for this segment weren't real.......oh....

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to quote the left wing talking point about Sun News...thanks Rick.

CBC= state sponsored left wing propaganda......so what's your point. At least Sun News isn't chewing on the government teat.

Anyways, the protestors in the video are a good representation of what these useless protests are all about.

All we have to do is read posts by the likes of you, Derek and company which are a good representation of the neo-facists here to know that these protests are a good thing.

It shows that there's a growing groundswell to rid this country of right wing maggots.

[g_bambino]

And it's also true that North American corporations profit from the murder of dissenters, mostly young adults.

Young people are organizing everywhere in support and to honour their counterparts, the youth of the Arab world who are fighting back against oppressive regimes and the corporations that support them.

This is exactly the kind of loony, far-left rhetoric that's actually counterproductive to the movement against overly-intimate relations between corporations and government. As has been pointed out, the actual activists - the ones camping out and taking over streets - are currently quite few in number. To get any real momentum, they need to expand beyond the ubiquitous rag-tag gaggle of dreadlocked, pierced, drum-circling artists and social studies students and attract more of the middle class to the cause; that's a block of voters that gets some actual attention from politicians and profiteers alike. There must be some rational people in the current group camped out at St. James Park - and in other locations in Canada - who can articulate a message (not twelve) clearly and in a manner most average people can understand and subsequently accept. As it is, the only ones being heard, to whom the media is paying attention, are the loud-mouthed truthers and conspiracists who spout refrains that sound romantic and rousing to themselves and their ilk but completely foreign and without reason to the average person.

-----------

As I was saying...

The people there are an eclectic group. Several that I spoke to are plain spoken and intelligent. They're having a hard time finding a job despite being well educated, or they lost their job during the recession and can't find another. They're tired of working as hard as they can and never getting ahead, while "the rich" get richer and they stagnate. There's quite a few university types there, each with an issue they're passionate to talk about, and they were unfailingly polite and always smart... They're decent, frustrated or even simply befuddled while life isn't working out for them...

Unfortunately for Occupy Toronto, these people — their best would-be spokespeople — are the quiet ones, who'll only speak to you if you walk up to them and stick out your hand. A minority of the people there are doing most of the talking, and that's not good news for the movement. One gentleman rambled semi-coherently about the fractional banking system, but whenever challenged on a point of fact or logic, would bristle and say he wasn't there to debate the issues. Another wanted an end to currency, period. He didn't have anything to say beyond that. There were the usual bevy of 9/11 Truthers about, and in one sad case, a clearly troubled young man was desperate to tell me about the ongoing alien infiltration and the imminent invasion of the Earth...

One young man, very friendly and eager to chat with me once he realized I was a journalist, amiably chatted about his work experience. He was having a hard time finding a job, he said, and was on welfare. I asked him what kind of work he'd been looking for, and he said anything, really. Except food service, because he'd done enough of that and was tired of it. Now that he's finished with food service, he'll just coast along on welfare until something better comes up. It's unlikely that many of the struggling working Canadians out there, working whatever jobs they can find so their taxes can pay for this young fellow's welfare, would have much sympathy for his sense of entitlement — because believe me, he clearly sees nothing wrong with going on social assistance because the last job he had, working at a supermarket deli, just wasn't doing it for him.

{I}f they want to connect with Canadians — the 99% they claim to be speaking for... The smart, frustrated average people, self-consciously standing around in the park as if they still can't quite believe they're doing this — are the ones that most Canadians could identify, and even sympathize, with. But as is so often the case, in the absence of any official word, the media (and passersby) can't help but notice the loudest, most outspoken voices. These folks, rambling about 9/11, an end to currency and the coming conquest of the Earth, are going to hog most of the attention, and that's how publicity battles are lost.

Inside Occupy Toronto: 'Mostly harmless,' except to their cause; Matt Gurney

[+]

Edited October 18, 2011 by g_bambino

[bush_cheney2004]

By a 67 – 23 percent margin, New York City voters agree with the views of the Wal Street protesters and say 87 – 10 percent that it is “okay that they are protesting,” according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today

What do NYC voters have to do with protesting in Canada? More wannabes!

[scribblet]

The 99% is a myth, but if the protesters really do believe they represent 99% of our population, why weren't there more of them at the protests. I'm one of the supposed 99% but I wouldn't support what appeared to be nothing fringe lunatics at the Toronto 'protests'.

Even hard left winger John Moore (of CFRB) said he didn't want to crap on their parade, but.... not to mention Canada is not equivalent to the U.S. at all, and why are they not protesting in Ottawa or in the U.S. - Washington. Only the MPs can make legislative changes, not bankers or brokers.

I'd still like to see something coherent from any of them as to what exactly they expect to happen, and if no gov't moves to do anything (what exactly), then what - violence or will they go home as it gets colder.