American Military Europe

[lukin]

The USA will soon cut back on military expenditures. The American military has provided a huge umbrella for western European nations, as well as Canada. Those nations haven't had to spend as much on military because they have relied on the Americans for any protection should the need arise. In essence, Canada is able to spend more on socialized health care because we have always gotten by with shitty military equipment, and felt very little need to update the high tech sea-king. We should thank the Americans for allowing us all to have great health care.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada's choices for military spending are its own, but we saw the practical impact of too little defense spending during the Rwandan massacre. Chretien and Dallaire wanted 50 APC's and transport to Rwanda to be provided by the Americans, because it had neither the APC's or any heavy airlift capability. Clinton said "hell no!" and 800,000 died. But Canadians had "great" health care!

(then Chretien and Martin cut that too!)

Edited October 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[lukin]

Canada's choices for military spending are its own, but we saw the practical impact of too little defense spending during the Rwandan massacre. Chretien and Dallaire wanted 50 APC's and transport to Rwanda to be provided by the Americans, because it had neither the APC's or any heavy airlift capability. Clinton said "hell no!" and 800,000 died. But Canadians had "great" health care!

(then Chretien and Martin cut that too!)

Hey, people only believe what they want, or what they hear from the CBC.

Edited October 4, 2011 by lukin

[Oleg Bach]

Hey, people only believe what they want, or what they hear from the CBC.

I believe anything that is presented in logic - that is true - that is evident. I might not like it - and could turn away - plug my ears with my fingers and sing --- la la la la...but I don't - It is the duty of every human being at this time to embrace reality and deal with it...if not we are doomed.

[Army Guy]

I'm actually surprised that this post is not huge by now, is this not what all those Anti American clans want, the US to go home....The US to stop being the worlds policemen....It's about time i say...let the US give the world a wake up call, pull out it's forces out of europe along with all their US dollars...and wait until they begin to scream....How many of them could even afford defense in todays world...

I just wish they would do the same with Canada...give us a huge wake up call...when we really find out how much defense costs and how little we are paying for it....

[Guest American Woman]

It's about time i say...let the US give the world a wake up call, pull out it's forces out of europe along with all their US dollars...and wait until they begin to scream....How many of them could even afford defense in todays world...

I agree, Army Guy - and I say "it's about time," too.

As for this thread not being huge by now, seems as if they're only huge when there's criticism to be had. Compliments and/or approval seem to result mainly in silence.

[waldo]

I agree, Army Guy - and I say "it's about time," too.

As for this thread not being huge by now, seems as if they're only huge when there's criticism to be had. Compliments and/or approval seem to result mainly in silence.

ya ya, USA world-police proponent... thanks for my health care!

[waldo]

I'm actually surprised...

and, respectively, I'm actually surprised you didn't take one poster to task for the false impressions and implications levied against Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, notwithstanding broader aspersion toward Canada, Chretien and Canadian Force representation within the UN Rwanda forces. Although I have the guy on ignore, occasionally I'm moved to respond to quotations of his most fabricated best... I expect as you are aware, or if I might, should be aware, the official OAU report does not match the posted fabrications. It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price, while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less. Clinton in a self-serving manner, years later, spoke to his personal failures in not responding urgently and forcefully... claiming not to realize the urgency, the severity - ya, sure!

[bush_cheney2004]

...Although I have the guy on ignore, occasionally I'm moved to respond to quotations of his most fabricated best...

Yeah, that's what they all say.

... It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price,

Meanwhile, Canada had none to give at all, and certainly no way to get them to Rwanda. But they had "free" health care by golly!

while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less. Clinton in a self-serving manner, years later, spoke to his personal failures in not responding urgently and forcefully... claiming not to realize the urgency, the severity - ya, sure!

Army Guy's point remains...world policeman yes...world policeman no...eenie...meenie...minie...mo.

[Guest Derek L]

and, respectively, I'm actually surprised you didn't take one poster to task for the false impressions and implications levied against Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, notwithstanding broader aspersion toward Canada, Chretien and Canadian Force representation within the UN Rwanda forces. Although I have the guy on ignore, occasionally I'm moved to respond to quotations of his most fabricated best... I expect as you are aware, or if I might, should be aware, the official OAU report does not match the posted fabrications. It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price, while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less. Clinton in a self-serving manner, years later, spoke to his personal failures in not responding urgently and forcefully... claiming not to realize the urgency, the severity - ya, sure!

So the gist of your post is that it’s America’s fault that the Rwandan genocide occurred? If you remember the time period, they had just been stung in Somalia……I don’t blame them for not getting involved…….Why not blame Rwanda’s former colonial head Belgium?

Ultimately, any lack of resources Dallaire had in Rwanda, was the fault of the contributing nations to that mission……….Chretien hadn’t disbanded the CAR yet……

[Guest Derek L]

Army Guy's point remains...world policeman yes...world policeman no...eenie...meenie...minie...mo.

For the life of me, if I were American, I’d want all US forces in Europe, Japan and South Korea brought home……….Cut the size of the regular army by a division or so, invest further into the Marines, Navy, Global Strike Command & SOCOM…….And maybe expand the National Guard units in the States along the Mexican boarder…….but that’s just me.

[lukin]

ya ya, USA world-police proponent... thanks for my health care!

So, you don't think Canada went on the cheap side militarily because they knew they were protected by the USA?

But I can see your point. Russia, China, and Mongolia were fearful of the power of the mighty sea-king.

[ToadBrother]

For the life of me, if I were American, I’d want all US forces in Europe, Japan and South Korea brought home……….Cut the size of the regular army by a division or so, invest further into the Marines, Navy, Global Strike Command & SOCOM…….And maybe expand the National Guard units in the States along the Mexican boarder…….but that’s just me.

I suspect you would find some countries, in particular South Korea, being less than enthused to see the US walk away.

If the Kims were your neighbors, would you want your big Uncle Sam, whose renting space in the garage for his aluminum baseball bat collection giving notice?

Edited October 4, 2011 by ToadBrother

[TimG]

I suspect you would find some countries, in particular South Korea, being less than enthused to see the US walk away.

Japan is already paying 4B+/year for the US troop presence in their country. All of the countries that ring China really want the US to stick around as a counter weight to China (although their populations have anti-American elements).

[waldo]

So the gist of your post is that it’s America’s fault that the Rwandan genocide occurred? If you remember the time period, they had just been stung in Somalia……I don’t blame them for not getting involved…….Why not blame Rwanda’s former colonial head Belgium?

Ultimately, any lack of resources Dallaire had in Rwanda, was the fault of the contributing nations to that mission……….Chretien hadn’t disbanded the CAR yet……

no - the 'gist' of my post was as stated, verified by the linked OAU report should you choose to actually read it; specifically: "It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price, while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less.".

as to your direct comment, a contributing nation, the U.S., did promise the UN to deliver the 50 APC, then proceeded to 'nickel & dime' the UN on price... this being, of course, also the time period where the U.S. owed massive unpaid dues to the UN... uhhhh, perhaps that was the reason for the Pentagon./U.S. government dithering over price - while genocide ran rampant throughout the countryside. And the significance of you mentioning the airborne in this post's context... is what?

[Guest Derek L]

I suspect you would find some countries, in particular South Korea, being less than enthused to see the US walk away.

If the Kims were your neighbors, would you want your big Uncle Sam, whose renting space in the garage for his aluminum baseball bat collection giving notice?

Well, like Europe twenty years ago, is it the Americans job to defend everybody? I don’t doubt the Europeans, the Japanese and Korean’s would like the United States to stick around and subsidise their national defence……….Almost as certain, many American’s would like their government to get their spending under control………

[Guest Derek L]

no - the 'gist' of my post was as stated, verified by the linked OAU report should you choose to actually read it; specifically: "It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price, while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less.".

as to your direct comment, a contributing nation, the U.S., did promise the UN to deliver the 50 APC, then proceeded to 'nickel & dime' the UN on price... this being, of course, also the time period where the U.S. owed massive unpaid dues to the UN... uhhhh, perhaps that was the reason for the Pentagon./U.S. government dithering over price - while genocide ran rampant throughout the countryside. And the significance of you mentioning the airborne in this post's context... is what?

You don’t feel our nickel and dimming of our own military at the time has some role to play? As for the mention of the CAR, they could have been deployed and went along ways in stopping the genocide…but our own PM & MND had other priorities for them…Subsequently, during the early 90s, we mothballed hundreds of M113s………And the Air Force identified a need as far back as the 60s for strategic airlifters

[bush_cheney2004]

So the gist of your post is that it’s America’s fault that the Rwandan genocide occurred? If you remember the time period, they had just been stung in Somalia……I don’t blame them for not getting involved…….Why not blame Rwanda’s former colonial head Belgium?

Agreed...there was no way in hell that Clinton wanted another episode of American corpses being dragged in the street on national television a la Mogadishu. If Chretien wanted to be a UN hero, then he can cough up the kit and airlift.

Ultimately, any lack of resources Dallaire had in Rwanda, was the fault of the contributing nations to that mission……….Chretien hadn’t disbanded the CAR yet……

Well, at least he got to write a bestselling book about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

………And the Air Force identified a need as far back as the 60s for strategic airlifters

Harper was all over that...standing in line to rent Antonov's in a crisis was not going to get the job done. As he put it, if you want a seat at the grown-ups table, you need to ante up.

[waldo]

You don’t feel our nickel and dimming of our own military at the time has some role to play? As for the mention of the CAR, they could have been deployed and went along ways in stopping the genocide…but our own PM & MND had other priorities for them…Subsequently, during the early 90s, we mothballed hundreds of M113s………And the Air Force identified a need as far back as the 60s for strategic airlifters

you, as the original poster did (although he purposely in order to slag), are confusing the authority of Canada versus the UN in that circumstance. The issue is Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, Force Commander for the UN Rwanda peacekeeping mission, was quite adamant that he felt the 50 APC were the required logistical support element needed to stop the killing. The U.S. agreed to provide the APC... and then didn't provide them... until it was too late (see Pentagon/U.S. government dithering/nickel & dimming).

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The U.S. agreed to provide the APC... and then didn't provide them... until it was too late (see Pentagon/U.S. government dithering/nickel & dimming).

How many did Canada provide? Or other UN nations? What was the contingency plan should the Americans stiff the UN? Where was the airlift?

The UN has no "authority" over member states.

Edited October 4, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

you, as the original poster did (although he purposely in order to slag), are confusing the authority of Canada versus the UN in that circumstance. The issue is Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, Force Commander for the UN Rwanda peacekeeping mission, was quite adamant that he felt the 50 APC were the required logistical support element needed to stop the killing. The U.S. agreed to provide the APC... and then didn't provide them... until it was too late (see Pentagon/U.S. government dithering/nickel & dimming).

Why didn't we provide our own? We just scraped hundreds a few years prior………And we could have bought Starlifters in the 60s when the need was first recognised……..Why is this the Americans fault

[lukin]

you, as the original poster did (although he purposely in order to slag), are confusing the authority of Canada versus the UN in that circumstance. The issue is Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, Force Commander for the UN Rwanda peacekeeping mission, was quite adamant that he felt the 50 APC were the required logistical support element needed to stop the killing. The U.S. agreed to provide the APC... and then didn't provide them... until it was too late (see Pentagon/U.S. government dithering/nickel & dimming).

Are you capable of forming your own opinion? We all know you can cut and paste.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why didn't we provide our own? We just scraped hundreds a few years prior………And we could have bought Starlifters in the 60s when the need was first recognised……..Why is this the Americans fault

It's just easier that way. Hell, we were parking C-141's in the Arizona desert with plenty of life in them.

[Guest Derek L]

It's just easier that way. Hell, we were parking C-141's in the Arizona desert with plenty of life in them.

Sure but even half a dozen, in addition to our Hercs, could have brought the CAR with a few companies of Grizzlies and Bisons over in a few days…….That, mixed with a relaxing of the ROE’s would have been a game changer……..Mind you, I think the long-term reaction, for both our nations would be akin to the current response by many of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan……..Nation building, peacekeeping/making etc is passé in today‘s world…….