American Military Europe

[waldo]

Why didn't we provide our own? We just scraped hundreds a few years prior………And we could have bought Starlifters in the 60s when the need was first recognised……..Why is this the Americans fault

I can repeat it, now for the 3rd time, if you'd like... it was a UN mission, the UN made a request of the U.S. to supply the Dallaire stated need for 50 APC. The U.S. promised the UN it would provide the 50 APC - the U.S. reneged on it's promise (within a timely effective period)... Rwandan genocide ensued. Notwithstanding the continued pattern of Allbright efforts to undermine the effectiveness of the UN force/deployment. As most directly related to the stated impacting logistical support requirement, the 50 APC, that were promised and not delivered (in time due to U.S. price dithering)... as an alternative to the U.S., just where would you prefer to attach 'blame'?

[Guest Derek L]

I can repeat it, now for the 3rd time, if you'd like... it was a UN mission, the UN made a request of the U.S. to supply the Dallaire stated need for 50 APC. The U.S. promised the UN it would provide the 50 APC - the U.S. reneged on it's promise (within a timely effective period)... Rwandan genocide ensued. Notwithstanding the continued pattern of Allbright efforts to undermine the effectiveness of the UN force/deployment. As most directly related to the stated impacting logistical support requirement, the 50 APC, that were promised and not delivered (in time due to U.S. price dithering)... as an alternative to the U.S., just where would you prefer to attach 'blame'?

And I’ll say for the third time, why didn’t we send our own?

[bush_cheney2004]

And I’ll say for the third time, why didn’t we send our own?

[waldo]

And I’ll say for the third time, why didn’t we send our own?

perhaps you should examine the protocol arrangements between the UN and contributing countries; typically, and ideally, channels are followed. You seem over-preoccupied with ignoring the simply basic fact that the U.S. reneged on it's promise. If you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.

[Guest Derek L]

Indeed......Let’s realize his point the you guys “dodged your responsibility” on this one………So why didn’t we send ours?

[Guest Derek L]

perhaps you should examine the protocol arrangements between the UN and contributing countries; typically, and ideally, channels are followed. You seem over-preoccupied with ignoring the simply basic fact that the U.S. reneged on it's promise. If you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.

Let’s realize your point that the Americans “dodged their responsibility” on this one………So why didn’t we send ours?

[waldo]

Indeed......Let’s realize his point the you guys “dodged your responsibility” on this one………So why didn’t we send ours?

a promise is an assigned and assumed responsibility... as I said, 'if you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.'

[Guest American Woman]

And I’ll say for the third time, why didn’t we send our own?

Exactly.

Fact is, Canada's promise wasn't fulfilled either.

Dallaire's only offers during the genocide, as a matter of record, were 50 trucks from Britain; a promise from Italy of one C130 aircraft plus crew;

6 water trucks, a signals squadron plus aircraft from Canada

; from the US 50 armoured personnel carriers, leasehold; and from Japan, US$ 3 million toward the cost of equipment.

Nothing materialized.

link

Edited October 5, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

...6 water trucks, a signals squadron plus aircraft from Canada...

Canada stiffed the UN....oh the humanity! (sobbing)

[bush_cheney2004]

a promise is an assigned and assumed responsibility...

Reminds me of a crude joke that can't be repeated here.

[Guest American Woman]

Canada stiffed the UN....oh the humanity! (sobbing)

Yep. But I'm sure Waldo is too fixated on the U.S. to care about what Canada did. Damn no-good United States "reneged on it's promise." And that's what it's all about ............

Edited October 5, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

Yep. But I'm sure Waldo is too fixated on the U.S. to care about what Canada did. Damn no-good United States "reneged on it's promise." And that's what it's all about ............

I guess super-powers make super-promises, and are held to a different standard. Same thing happened with NATO and Libya...they couldn't get the job done without "unique" American capabilities (that cost a fortune).

[Oleg Bach]

I guess super-powers make super-promises, and are held to a different standard. Same thing happened with NATO and Libya...they couldn't get the job done without "unique" American capabilities (that cost a fortune).

You are equipped..we are not. You are a marshallist society - we are ameteurs...when you want the job done you get a professional..so we go to you. In the mean time try and control that power - it can corrupt from what I have heard.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are equipped..we are not. You are a marshallist society - we are ameteurs...when you want the job done you get a professional..so we go to you. In the mean time try and control that power - it can corrupt from what I have heard.

Sorry, but we are tapped out. In the good old days, we pushed perfectly good helicopters overboard at the end of the Vietnam War...helicopters that Canada would beg for...and still does.

Next time call China...see what they can/will do for you.

[Oleg Bach]

Sorry, but we are tapped out. In the good old days, we pushed perfectly good helicopters overboard at the end of the Vietnam War...helicopters that Canada would beg for...and still does.

Next time call China...see what they can/will do for you.

Hey - don't walk away BC - I'm talking to you ....no way are we going to let you plead poverty - want some oil - we will pump it down - now relax - it's not over till the fat lady sings - and we have her gagged and bound.

[Guest Derek L]

a promise is an assigned and assumed responsibility... as I said, 'if you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.'

I’ve already conceded the point……..The Americans “stiffed us”……….So why didn’t we send ours?

[Guest Derek L]

a promise is an assigned and assumed responsibility... as I said, 'if you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.'

50 M113s could have been flown to Rwanda, onboard six C-141, with only a handful of roundtrip flights…….Or aboard 6-8 leased Antonov flights………..The CAR could have been flown over with what we had.

So why didn't we send them?

[bush_cheney2004]

I’ve already conceded the point……..The Americans “stiffed us”……….So why didn’t we send ours?

I haven't...declassified documents paint an altogether different context, one in which Clinton and Albright refused material aid to any such Rwandan mission. I specifically recall a fight over the very use of the word "genocide" to characterize the event. My sister was in Kigali for a year prior (1993 - World Wildlife Fund), and it was her experience that nothing could have prevented what happened short of a Belgian miracle.

Edited October 5, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

I haven't...declassified documents paint an altogether different context, one in which Clinton and Albright refused material aid to any such Rwandan mission. I specifically recall a fight over the very use of the word "genocide" to characterize the event. My sister was in Kigali for a year prior (1993 - World Wildlife Fund), and it was her experience that nothing could have prevented what happened short of a Belgian miracle.

I agree also……..I highly doubt 50 APCs were the difference between tens of thousands being killed………But, as Waldo made the point, I inquired why we didn’t send ours……..We had fifty trucks, fifty APCs, a Herc etc……..Why didn’t we foot the bill?

[waldo]

and, respectively, I'm actually surprised you didn't take one poster to task for the false impressions and implications levied against Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, notwithstanding broader aspersion toward Canada, Chretien and Canadian Force representation within the UN Rwanda forces. Although I have the guy on ignore, occasionally I'm moved to respond to quotations of his most fabricated best... I expect as you are aware, or if I might, should be aware, the official OAU report does not match the posted fabrications. It was the US/Allbright that did all in its power to undermine the effectiveness of the UN deployment from the very start. Most categorically, to the specific APC reference, Americans agreed to the UN request to provide the APCs... and then both the U.S. government and Pentagon proceeded to dither about price, while genocide ensued - nothing more, nothing less. Clinton in a self-serving manner, years later, spoke to his personal failures in not responding urgently and forcefully... claiming not to realize the urgency, the severity - ya, sure!

Yep. But I'm sure Waldo is too fixated on the U.S. to care about what Canada did. Damn no-good United States "reneged on it's promise." And that's what it's all about ............

no fixation - as I stated, my very pointed and focused attention was another MLW members false impressions and implications levied against Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, notwithstanding broader aspersion toward Canada, Chretien and Canadian Force representation within the UN Rwanda forces... false impressions and implications specifically related to the referenced 50 APC. There is certainly blame to go all around... there is also, according to the official OAU report, particular blame to be attached to the U.S., at large, and particularly related to the referenced 50 APC. That is not, as you say, my fixation... that is me addressing statements of fact and consensus understanding.

For the next six weeks, as the carnage continued, the UN dithered in organizing any kind of response to the ongoing tragedy.

The Americans, led by US Ambassador Madeleine Albright, played the key role in blocking more expeditious action by the UN.

On May 17, the Security Council finally authorized an expanded UNAMIR II to consist of 5,500 personnel. But there is perhaps no distance greater on earth than the one between the Security Council chambers and the outside world.

Once the decision to expand was finally made, as we will soon show in detail, the Pentagon somehow required an additional seven weeks just to negotiate a contract for delivering armed personnel carriers to the field; evidently it proved difficult to arrange the desired terms for “maintenance and spare parts.”

When the genocide ended in mid-July with the final RPF victory, not a single additional UN soldier had landed in Kigali.

[waldo]

a promise is an assigned and assumed responsibility... as I said, 'if you're privy to what subsequently transpired during the U.S. dithering period, what happened between the UN, the U.S. and other contributing countries, I look forward to you bringing that forward.'

I’ve already conceded the point……..The Americans “stiffed us”……….So why didn’t we send ours?

I would suggest a touch of naivety on your part - do you believe Canada... any country... under the auspices of a formal UN peacekeeping mission, could on its own volition move unilaterally forward on any level?

[Guest Derek L]

no fixation - as I stated, my very pointed and focused attention was another MLW members false impressions and implications levied against Canadian Lieutenent-General Romeo Dallaire, notwithstanding broader aspersion toward Canada, Chretien and Canadian Force representation within the UN Rwanda forces... false impressions and implications specifically related to the referenced 50 APC. There is certainly blame to go all around... there is also, according to the official OAU report, particular blame to be attached to the U.S., at large, and particularly related to the referenced 50 APC. That is not, as you say, my fixation... that is me addressing statements of fact and consensus understanding.

So for the fourth (or fifth?) time, why didn’t we send our own APCs? Simple question really……

[Guest Derek L]

I would suggest a touch of naivety on your part - do you believe Canada... any country... under the auspices of a formal UN peacekeeping mission, could on its own volition move unilaterally forward on any level?

You’re saying UN regulations are to blame for Canada not being able to send our own APCs? When the Americans didn’t produce theirs, do you have anything to suggest that the UN would be opposed to another nation contributing to make up for the short fall………for the sake of this discussion, why couldn’t Canada contribute?

[waldo]

I would suggest a touch of naivety on your part - do you believe Canada... any country... under the auspices of a formal UN peacekeeping mission, could on its own volition move unilaterally forward on any level?

You’re saying UN regulations are to blame for Canada not being able to send our own APCs? When the Americans didn’t produce theirs, do you have anything to suggest that the UN would be opposed to another nation contributing to make up for the short fall………for the sake of this discussion, why couldn’t Canada contribute?

I am suggesting it is a contributing factor - you keep asking the same question... short of you actually providing your own answer to your own repeated question, I would suggest the onus is on you to suggest there was an unused & untapped UN sanctioned avenue for expeditious remedy to have stopped the genocide. Short of you doing that, yes... you are being naive. We are talking about a very short window for alternate action to have been taken - I believe 6 weeks is the oft mentioned period of the concentrated genocide. Over that 6 week period, the facts state the U.S. actively engaged in blocking expeditious action by the UN (per the quote from the formal OAU report I provided in my previous post - "The Americans, led by US Ambassador Madeleine Albright, played the key role in blocking more expeditious action by the UN"

[Oleg Bach]

Albright was a lunitic...an elite when asked about the death of 30 thousand civilians...said "it was worth the end result" - what kind of person thinks like that?