Military defies orders to increase size of militia.

[Army Guy]

You're right, everything is straight shit. Forget what any analysts say. Our military has been called one of the best small army's, with the most capability in the world. Our equipment is generally top notch, even if there isn't always as much as you want. The military is just another government department, and it must be treated that way. You guys can play your cold war games, but governments have to live in reality.

Our military is one of the best in the world not because of our equipment but rather for the capability of it's troops which is due to our older make do equipment and the troops being adaptable in knowing how to make old stuff work like new...

The Most Capability in the world is a tough standard to live up to, considering the company we normally keep. and as long we deploy a battle group or less we can compete...thats less than 2000 pers for it to be sustainable (Army Pers)

Lets take a look at some of the Army's gear shall we. LAV III over 10 years old and rode hard needs replacement, Currently Each Mech INF Bn has only enough LAV's to outfit one out of every three rifle Companies....the rest get moved by bus...or truck..that makes us motorized not Mech... we supplement these with the TLAV or M113 on steriods, orginal made in 1950's also rode hard, maybe one Bn has one companies worth.......M777 excellent arty piece, however how many did we buy, Note we retired the M109 our main arty piece along with the french 105...gone replaced by the M777 with maybe a third of the numbers, and most of them have also been rode hard...Combat engineer equipment still using the light Leo chasis with the contract still being finalized....it could take years, until then they will use the old stuff, and just a note only the Heavy brig has these...the rest have light capabilities, and perhaps one heavy piece to keep current...

Your right we could talk numbers all night but when you look at the numbers a country our size only has 3 Brigades to defend it....thats maybe 18,000 troops....how many sq kms in Canada anyway....

The military is just another Dept and subject to cuts and broken promises just like the rest...you paint a picture that all is rosey, birds singing ...but it is not...DND has just started in it's recover, and cuts or broken promises will set us back decades......and not much has been delivered just yet or even in production......

Oh, and the subs are the best diesel electric subs in the world. The navy has written many times in support of them, and has said to wait until 2012 - 2013 before people judge them. They took too long to become operational, but they're pretty much there now, and the navy seems to think that they were the right ships, and still at the right price.

Really i just read an article on the Germany type 212 and 214 they seem they have the best sub in the world, still in production ....Shit i hope we don't have to wait 12 to 15 years before we talk about the new F-35 we are going to buy...speaking of 2013 the navy said in the maple leaf...Military news letter, the best sub we had , just had a Ant fire and should be back in service in 2013...with the second sub not in service before 2014...and well the third died on the operating table a long time ago....Some people in the Navy think there are the right ship for the right price...and yet they have yet to complete a full tour of duty in what 12 years....i know there almost there...

[Smallc]

Our military is one of the best in the world not because of our equipment but rather for the capability of it's troops which is due to our older make do equipment and the troops being adaptable in knowing how to make old stuff work like new...

No, that isn't what the analysts mean.

The Most Capability in the world is a tough standard to live up to, considering the company we normally keep. and as long we deploy a battle group or less we can compete...thats less than 2000 pers for it to be sustainable (Army Pers)

Did you miss the part about a small army?

Your right we could talk numbers all night but when you look at the numbers a country our size only has 3 Brigades to defend it....thats maybe 18,000 troops....how many sq kms in Canada anyway....

And? We have to pay for a military, and I don't know if you've noticed, but other countries haven't been paying for what they have.

The military is just another Dept and subject to cuts and broken promises just like the rest...you paint a picture that all is rosey, birds singing ...but it is not...DND has just started in it's recover, and cuts or broken promises will set us back decades......and not much has been delivered just yet or even in production......

Many contracts have been signed, even if things haven't been delivered yet. Things don't happen overnight.

Really i just read an article on the Germany type 212 and 214 they seem they have the best sub in the world, still in production ....Shit i hope we don't have to wait 12 to 15 years before we talk about the new F-35 we are going to buy...speaking of 2013 the navy said in the maple leaf...Military news letter, the best sub we had , just had a Ant fire and should be back in service in 2013...with the second sub not in service before 2014...and well the third died on the operating table a long time ago....Some people in the Navy think there are the right ship for the right price...and yet they have yet to complete a full tour of duty in what 12 years....i know there almost there...

This is why I have trouble with your posts:

Versions of this letter from Vice Admiral Maddison have appeared in the Globe and Mail and Ottawa Citizen.

“Dear Editor,

I wish to take this opportunity to reply to an article that your paper recently published.

I am pleased that the article accepted that submarines are essential to Canada’s defence and security. Unrivalled in their stealth, persistence and lethality, submarines permit Canada to act decisively at sea. That capacity has been demonstrated in operations and exercises from tropical to Arctic latitudes, and in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

Our boats have conducted surveillance at home and supported the interdiction of drug-traffickers in the Americas. They have helped to prepare our allies for operational missions and acted as formidable adversaries during advanced warfare training. In every instance, our boats performed admirably in the hands of Canadian submariners—outstanding men and women who have chosen to serve Canada at sea in one of the most challenging environments possible.

Our Victoria-class submarines are physically capable of firing the Mk48 heavyweight torpedo, among the world’s most advanced weapons. Had a national emergency made it essential to certify the submarines, we would have done so.

The boats will soon reach full operational status. Victoria and Windsor will be weaponized next year, and Chicoutimi the year after. From 2013 until the class is retired, Canada will have a submarine available for operations both east and west, with a third boat able to deploy where the Government so chooses. A fourth submarine will be with industry, undergoing necessary deep maintenance.

Our submarines remain an exceptional value. They were acquired at roughly one-quarter of the projected cost of a comparable new build. Our operating and maintenance costs are comparable to those of other navies. Given that the boats were purchased with 80% of projected hull life remaining, Canada will see a solid return on its investment well into the 2020s.

Admittedly, it has taken us longer to bring the boats into service than we would have wished. We underestimated a number of challenges, including: the effort needed to re-establish the class integrated logistics and supply chain; the need to establish a capability to sustain the boats in operational service on both coasts; and, finally, the effort associated with transferring strategic skills and knowledge into industry for the deep maintenance of the submarines. Each of these challenges was overcome through the tremendous effort and dedication of our people.

Submarines are an exceptionally demanding business. They are among the most sophisticated machines on the planet, and they operate in one of the world’s most extreme environments—underwater—where any error can be greeted by disaster. Operating submarines safely and effectively requires concentrated investments in training and maintenance. No shortcuts can be taken in any aspect of submarine operations.

We are near the end of a long beginning, and I believe that Canadians should be proud of the leadership, determination and professionalism of their submariners, who have brought us collectively to this point.

Yours aye,”

I'm done having this conversation. I don't take this talk seriously in the face of the largest budget, even adjusted for inflation, in decades. There are few countries getting more in the way of new or sustained military spending.

[Army Guy]

Did you miss the part about a small army?

2000 is not a small army it's a club....shit a small army would be 50 k of people give us all a break....

This is why I have trouble with your posts:

this is why i have a problem with yours, maybe someday you'll get the true picture.

My link

My link

url="http://www.ceasefire.ca/?p=8418"]My link[/url]

My link[The Military Today

The 50-year old "Sea King" helicopters are often cited as a quintessential example of our under-funded army. The army spends more time fixing them then they spend in the air.

Despite its proud history and institutional maturity, there is a rather large gap in perceptions between how the Canadian military thinks of itself, and how the public at large regards it. Today you'll often hear Canadian military denounced as a "joke," "pathetic," or worse. Though we may respect our men and women in uniform, few Canadians hold our army in high regard, for the simple fact that the Canadian armed forces remain so small and under-funded. Though Canadians like to claim to be modest, they're also very ambitious, and have never really been entirely comfortable with Canada just being a "minor" country. Having a small and underfunded military is an embarrassing reminder of this status.

There are always stories in the media about how poorly equipped our soldiers are, and how they are using decades-old equipment that literally falls apart in their hands. It's very fashionable for populist politicians to promise to increase funding for the armed forces, but in practice the Canadian government always has lots of other spending priorities. Certain "sacrifices" always must be made to fund project X, and more often than not the Canadian military has been the victim of such budget cuts.

[Smallc]

There are always stories in the media about how poorly equipped our soldiers are, and how they are using decades-old equipment that literally falls apart in their hands.

That isn't true (I doubt you can find any), and the Sea King is a poor example considering there has been a replacement contract signed for 7 years. Like I said, I'm done with this conversation.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Smallc

[William Ashley]

That isn't true (I doubt you can find any), and the Sea King is a poor example considering there has been a replacement contract signed for 7 years. Like I said, I'm done with this conversation.

There is always room for improvement.

:collective defence: equates being the badguy because canada is constantly at war where as for canada's ideal foreign affairs position is non interventionist and has nothing to personally gain in the wars that expend billions of dollars.

problem 2 is major purchases are foriegn tech at the cost of supportung canada local nationally owned industry -- which has resulted in us defence companies buying out canadian defence firms.

Mexico's model is far better for canada than the us model - canada would gain from an alliance with latin america and the caribean and dumping nato.

the model is all wrong

it is just wasting money in wars that threaten canadas long term peace and security.

Edited September 27, 2011 by William Ashley

[Smallc]

There is always room for improvement.

Definitely, and for the last few years, we've had constant improvement.

[William Ashley]

Definitely, and for the last few years, we've had constant improvement.

how so?

[Smallc]

how so?

Well, I don't think you'd see it as improvement, but budgets are double what they were, equipment is being replaced, and the money is being spent as it needs to be on training and readiness.

[William Ashley]

Well, I don't think you'd see it as improvement, but budgets are double what they were, equipment is being replaced, and the money is being spent as it needs to be on training and readiness.

no spending more money is not an improvement it is actually the opposite.

improvement is getting more for less.

and dropping bombs in libya.. not improvement just stating what money is being spent on that is not improvement,

those bombs would be 50 new striker ifvs and a 500 -1000 person mobile division

Edited September 27, 2011 by William Ashley

[Scotty]

You're right, everything is straight shit. Forget what any analysts say. Our military has been called one of the best small army's, with the most capability in the world. Our equipment is generally top notch, even if there isn't always as much as you want. The military is just another government department, and it must be treated that way. You guys can play your cold war games, but governments have to live in reality

The thing which bugs me about these sorts of problems is that the cost of armored vehicles is really not very high given the overall size of the government's budget. It's also not that high given the money we pay to DND. The gross inefficiency of DND in allocating that money properly is the problem. It's long been said that we have more HR specialists than soldiers. And the fact that HQ bureaucrats in finance and administration grew fifty percent over the past ten years is an indication things have gotten worse, not better.

[

Oh, and the subs are the best diesel electric subs in the world. The navy has written many times in support of them, and has said to wait until 2012 - 2013 before people judge them. They took too long to become operational, but they're pretty much there now, and the navy seems to think that they were the right ships, and still at the right price.

Stop reading hopeful press releases as gospel. The navy's been saying as much for ten years now. Ten years they've been working on those lemons, and they're still lemons.

[Scotty]

I'm done having this conversation. I don't take this talk seriously in the face of the largest budget, even adjusted for inflation, in decades. There are few countries getting more in the way of new or sustained military spending.

Right, you know more than the army guy.

To me, not providing enough armored vehicles to equip an entire unit is like telling half the cops they can have cars but the rest have to jog to each call. It's ridiculous.

[Guest Derek L]

Oh, and the subs are the best diesel electric subs in the world. The navy has written many times in support of them, and has said to wait until 2012 - 2013 before people judge them. They took too long to become operational, but they're pretty much there now, and the navy seems to think that they were the right ships, and still at the right price.

Gimmie a break……..and KIA says they make the world’s best sub-compact………The Gotlands, U 212/U214s, Collins and Soryu classes are all decade(s) newer, have a working fire control system and no dive restrictions.....

[Scotty]

Well, I don't think you'd see it as improvement, but budgets are double what they were, equipment is being replaced, and the money is being spent as it needs to be on training and readiness.

Yeah, replace half the old, rundown, crappy equipment and call it a great bonus.

Replace all the old, rundown, crappy equipment? That's too generous!

And the money isn't being spent on training and readiness because it's being spent on bureaucrats.

[Guest Derek L]

I mean really, what do people expect the government to do? The military already had a huge increase in spending, even accounting for inflation, and the three largest economies in the world are going into the crap hole. It isn't realistic to expect larger budgets. All we can do, is go by the published material, and that material says different things to different people.

We’re not complaining about the budget per say, it’s those expecting we add additional capabilities within the current budget that are out to lunch....

[Guest Derek L]

The thing which bugs me about these sorts of problems is that the cost of armored vehicles is really not very high given the overall size of the government's budget. It's also not that high given the money we pay to DND. The gross inefficiency of DND in allocating that money properly is the problem. It's long been said that we have more HR specialists than soldiers. And the fact that HQ bureaucrats in finance and administration grew fifty percent over the past ten years is an indication things have gotten worse, not better.

And the thing that bugs me about armoured vehicles is that the LAVs are built in London Ontario…….I’m not huge on stimulus spending, but in case where both the army has a need, and the Ontario Auto/Manufacturing sector is hurting, it would kind of kill two birds with one stone……………By my guesstimate (I’m sure Army Guy could come up with closer numbers), to fit out all the infantry Battalions, the training centers and to have a small spares pool, roughly 1000 would do……….Purchase 100 a year for ten years, adding on new improvements as the technology is matured, then after 10 years, start replacing the first 100 and repeat………Any of the oldest with life left on, give to either the reserves or flog them off in the third world market…………The Army gets a relatively cheap, but always modernizing, primary troop carrier, and you create a sustainable industry………As the industry becomes more efficient, the price drops on the vehicles, and they become more appealing on the export market………rinse and repeat.

[Smallc]

Right, you know more than the army guy.

What makes him so special? Do you also think that the clerk at Wal Mart knows a great deal about running the company? I spend hours a day on this kind of stuff. There are both negative and positive stories right now, but to say that the current budget is inadequate is insane. Under the current plan, capabilities are being shifted. That means we move out of what we were doing, but we gain new capabilities for the others that we've stopped. It's one of the largest budgets in the world, and I haven't heard many outside of internet forums argue that it's too small. DND definitely does need to be more efficient in allocating it though. I mean, they can't even spend their whole budget every year....and they're supposed to get more money?

I should qualify all of this though. If there was more money to be had, and if DND could actually spend it, I'd support giving them more. Right now, neither is the case.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

What makes him so special? Do you also think that the clerk at Wal Mart knows a great deal about running the company? I spend hours a day on this kind of stuff.

What makes you so special?

There are both negative and positive stories right now, but to say that the current budget is inadequate is insane

Since you spend hours on this a day, what would be the impact on the current budget with an increase of two to three thousand personal to the reserves?

Under the current plan, capabilities are being shifted. That means we move out of what we were doing, but we gain new capabilities for the others that we've stopped.

What capabilities are we “moving out of” and gaining?

It's one of the largest budgets in the world, and I haven't heard many outside of internet forums argue that it's too small.

The 16th or 17th largest.........Who's the world's tallest midget? The lowest in the G8 and smaller than several countries with both smaller populations and/or GDP…….Australia/Spain/South Korea/Turkey

DND definitely does need to be more efficient in allocating it though. I mean, they can't even spend their whole budget every year....and they're supposed to get more money?

I tend to agree here to an extent, but in fairness, some of the rules put on DND by the government (Liberals/Tories) restrict how money is spent…….

I should qualify all of this though. If there was more money to be had, and if DND could actually spend it, I'd support giving them more. Right now, neither is the case.

Agreed, but wouldn’t you also feel expectations of increasing capabilities that are not budgeted are also foolish?

[Smallc]

Agreed, but wouldn’t you also feel expectations of increasing capabilities that are not budgeted are also foolish?

No, given that Spain spends hardly any more, but yet has far more. They've been spending the same amount for a very long time. I don't think it's unreasonable given that we're supposed to have a relatively constant budget (plus inflation) that we'll be able to increase capabilities.

Oh, and we're the smallest country in the G8. We're actually something like the 12th largest economy. I don't think it's unreasonable that we're spending somewhere between the 13th and 16th most, depending on what you look at. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but you won't find much in the way of negativity on the budget or the current capabilities of the forces outside of a couple of internet forums. There are soldiers that will argue that the forces are doing really well, and those that argue they aren't. Some of them are higher up the ladder than others. I mean really, in 2001 we were spending $9.6B, and in 2007, $14.8B...this year, we're spending $21.8B, next year a bit less, and then more every year until 2030. How can you not get an increase in capability over the 90s when you double your military budget, and increase it by 60% when accounting for inflation?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Smallc

[Army Guy]

That isn't true (I doubt you can find any), and the Sea King is a poor example considering there has been a replacement contract signed for 7 years. Like I said, I'm done with this conversation.

How could it be true you spend hours a day doing this...

So lets start with a list shall we, I'll keep it simple and just use equipment that is still in service by operational units, or over seas.

MLVW: great truck 10 years ago but it has been driven hard and put away wet Last year the military put the following restrictions on it...not bad for one of the logistics prime movers...Since then this veh has been declared not supportable, meaning there are no parts being purchased any longer, check most Bases and you'll find dozens upon dozens of these trucks awaiting the long drive out to the ranges...

1. No troop transport,

2. No ammo transport,

3. Max allowable road speed=60kph.

Replacement is in the works but no contract has been signed, Note that this veh does have a garison or sister veh type, the MSVS which was orginally purchased for the reserves, now being distributed to solve issues with MLVW's it's a huge veh but prone to bursting in flames, which they now repairing or modifiing to fix that problem...

LSVW : well i don't have to go very far with this veh, a polictical and military failure...this trucks are so rusted that it is common for drivers and passagers to pound the floor boards to ensure there feet don't fall through while driving...No replacement being looked at this time...Same problem with these as well they burst into flames they are still trying to fix the problem...

HLVW; excellent truck , only complaint is not enough of them purchased, is getting old now, and it's time to replace them, infact they stop using them in Afghan and purchased some benz ATCO's "of course only being used in Afghan....

there is a Project to replace them, but no contracts as of yet...

TLAV an uparmoured upgraded M-113 purchased in the 50's still going strong,Afghan had over 80 of them running around, still dozens more running around in Canada....How many Nations in the top 16 still own and operate these as IFV's.

LAV III Great veh , but past it's prime, to few in numbers , Afghan took a toll on these vehs, and Veh cas were high...so now with the rebuild numbers will be even fewer....mean while Gen motors says it will build us the LAV H which is a Canadian upgraded version of the LAV V but no go project was canceled no funds...so upgrade it is...

Leo I : thats right we are still using the old leo's exception in Afghan , our only Armoured (tank) Reg in Canada,still operates the old tanks, sure we did purchase some from europe but they are still not in service yet...and they will only be brought up to LEO IIA4 Cdn standard, mean while Germany has launcher an LEO IIA7 model...

M777 yes we did purchase these new high tech towed guns, but at a cost, we had to retire all the M109's 155mm SPA and french 105's...or 2/3's of our arty fire power...replaced by a handful of guns...Most of these have seen action in Afghan and are well used....

Sea king : i know it's a poor example because it's what over 45 years old...and although we do have a contract anyone seen the new helos flying yet....

CH-148 , yes the new SAR helo's, how many times have they been grounded, be it cracked rotars, or just plain lack of spare parts...wonder how a organization so flush with cash could have a lack or spare parts for a Airframe so critical as one for SAR....And how long has this project been on the books, would you say it's fair to say over 10 years or more...knowing the time frame to replace equipment why is there not more ongoing projects... no funds....

F-18A/B great airplane but dated, compared to the new models E and F, or F-35...while the Airforce have already chosen it's replacement there is no contract , yes we sort have a commitment, but did'nt we have a commitment to purchase replacements for the Sea king...shit i thought we even had a contract signed ready for production....which proves another piont until production is started and delivered anything can happen...a change of government and poof DND could be right back at the starting line again...

Navy ships...well lets not go there....Subs i think we covered subs already....And your write up by the Adm is nice but just what did you expect him to say....there shit...talk to the guys that serve on them shit they even have there own web site....

So lets go over the list again these are just of the top of my head , there is lots more out there if one did some research ....funney how each element is covered, and each piece is a major componet to that elements fighting capability....or logistical capability....

And yet we are good to go, even when DND just annouces that in 2015 they will spend over 70 % of existing budget in wages ...and they will have to cut jobs and cancel some projects on the books...thats got to be a warning if i ever heard one....wonder which projects will go...i wonder which jobs they will slashed....sound like a dept that is flush with cash to you....and this has already been explained to Canadians you can not repair all the damage down during our decde of darkness in a few yearws with a few good budgets....how could we it takes on avg 7 to 10 years to crank out a project....it should take that long just to start repairing the damage....

Edited September 28, 2011 by Army Guy

[Army Guy]

What makes him so special? Do you also think that the clerk at Wal Mart knows a great deal about running the company? I spend hours a day on this kind of stuff.

Nothing makes me special, but i will tell you i'm not a clerk at walmart either. what i will tell you is i have 30 years of experience as an Inf soldier, and while i don't work in Ottawa by chioce i still have access to materials about the Army that are not available on the intra net...This is my life it is what i do, and i do it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week...

And i'm not slamming Smallc military knowledge as he is a huge supporter of the military, and although we have had this disagreement for years now, he does keep me on the staight and narrow and he does make a great contribution to the military topics on this forum.

I mean, they can't even spend their whole budget every year....and they're supposed to get more money?

You have a valid piont on this , DND did turn in excess dollars back to the government..it is embrassing and i hope someones balls are hanging on a wall...and someone failed to plan in detail and huge amounts of funds were given back...not the message we wanted to send...and i doubt it will happen this year...

[Smallc]

I apologize army guy, I don't think you're like a clerk at Wal Mart, I just know that there are many in the forces who don't take the she dim view of things that you do, today or going forward. From what I can see, this looks like a bright time for the forces.

[wyly]

Gimmie a break……..and KIA says they make the world’s best sub-compact………The Gotlands, U 212/U214s, Collins and Soryu classes are all decade(s) newer, have a working fire control system and no dive restrictions.....

quality of the ship is only as good as the crew on it....

my bro-in-law a career sailor of 25 years an expert in anti submarine warfare related to me how one our "antiquated" Oberon class subs in naval exercise penetrated the defenses of an american super carrier fleet, tagged the carrier and escaped undetected...

I've no doubt our newer subs can do just as well, the only problem seems to be keeping them operating...

[Scotty]

And the thing that bugs me about armoured vehicles is that the LAVs are built in London Ontario…….I’m not huge on stimulus spending, but in case where both the army has a need, and the Ontario Auto/Manufacturing sector is hurting, it would kind of kill two birds with one stone……………By my guesstimate (I’m sure Army Guy could come up with closer numbers), to fit out all the infantry Battalions, the training centers and to have a small spares pool, roughly 1000 would do……….Purchase 100 a year for ten years, adding on new improvements as the technology is matured, then after 10 years, start replacing the first 100 and repeat………Any of the oldest with life left on, give to either the reserves or flog them off in the third world market…………The Army gets a relatively cheap, but always modernizing, primary troop carrier, and you create a sustainable industry………As the industry becomes more efficient, the price drops on the vehicles, and they become more appealing on the export market………rinse and repeat.

This is exactly my point. It's not that complicated and not that expensive. The way things have been run over the past generation is that the government buys something, be it trucks, tanks, LAVs, fighters, ships, or whatever. It buys them all at once, and then buys nothing more for ten, twenty, thirty or forty years, whereupon it again has to place a huge expensive order to replace the entire inventory. It's insane!

[Scotty]

What makes him so special? Do you also think that the clerk at Wal Mart knows a great deal about running the company? I spend hours a day on this kind of stuff.

As far as I've seen from you, you've said you work in some sort of family enterprise. Maybe you'd care to enlighten us what your expertise is.

Anyone who actually works in the military, particularly if they're in the combat arms, has a lot more insight into the failings and inadequacies of equipment than you do.

There are both negative and positive stories right now, but to say that the current budget is inadequate is insane. Under the current plan, capabilities are being shifted. That means we move out of what we were doing, but we gain new capabilities for the others that we've stopped. It's one of the largest budgets in the world, and I haven't heard many outside of internet forums argue that it's too small.

You can knock off that 'largest budgets in the world' nonsense. It's not impressive. We're a western country, which means that our soldiers make more than other country's presidents - well, except that those presidents usually steal a lot more. We spend far more money on wages and benefits than any country which isn't a western democracy, and we're one of the larger western democracies - despite people who continue to see us as a small country because they only compare us to the US. So a raw monetary figure is no guide to whether we're actually getting a well-equipped military.

[Scotty]

You have a valid piont on this , DND did turn in excess dollars back to the government..it is embrassing and i hope someones balls are hanging on a wall...and someone failed to plan in detail and huge amounts of funds were given back...not the message we wanted to send...and i doubt it will happen this year...

A billion and a half dollars, wasn't it? How many trucks and LAVs could you buy for a billion and a half bucks, AG?