Gap between rich and poor rising faster in Canada

[Argus]

Angus : Yes, I suppose I could run away from the thugs extorting me. But that's not my preferred method of dealing with bullies - and what about all their other hapless victims? Am I to just let this evil gang attack innocents because I am too cowardly to do anything?

I've got a better solution. Revolution.

The Beatles wrote a song about that a while back. Maybe you can steal a copy and give it a listen.

The thing about a club is membership is voluntary. I'd like to revoke mine, thank you very much.

Then you have to get out of the clubhouse, which is called Canada.

[Bonam]

There is simply no need for intellectual property.

Intellectual property is almost the only way that small innovative startups in the tech field can succeed. You develop some cool new technology because you had a good idea. But, you are a tiny company, you don't have the kind of production and distribution infrastructure that giant corporations have. But, because you have the IP, you have some time to invest in such infrastructure and start making money off your technology. Or, you can just sell the license to the technology to another company, who then have the right to use it. If you didn't have the IP, within a few days of your product hitting market, some giant company will have bought a copy, reverse engineered it, and started making their own. Knowing this, would you have bothered to spend years trying to come up with your innovation and trying to build a new company? No. You woulda just taken a 9-5 job.

[Bonam]

Then you have to get out of the clubhouse, which is called Canada.

A bit of a flawed analogy, since 1) you are born in the clubhouse, and 2) the entire habitable world is claimed by one club or another.

[Argus]

There is simply no need for intellectual property. What it comes down to is people cannot compete on the free market, so they lobby for government protection. That is not how capitalism works. You either put up, or shut up, don't go whining to the government for help just because someone else can serve the consumers needs better than you can.

Serve the consumers better than me by stealing my work, relabeling it, and selling it as theirs?

Are you actually trying to use that nonsense about being 'unable to compete' on the developers and inventors of products who simply don't want others stealing their work? What are you on?!

Without IP & copywrite the record industry and the book industry would collapse, because they would be completely replaced by the internet and data copying.

I don't know if this has occurred to you, but in order for you to be able to steal things on the internet someone has to write or develop them first and put them on the internet. They're not going to do that without a reward. I know a woman who writes romance stories. She's not good enough for the publishing industry, but she writes these romance novelettes, then sells them on the internet as e-books. She writes a new one about every month or so, and it takes a lot of her time. And while her sales aren't huge, they're enough for her to live on. What you want is for her to have no right to her own stories. You want anyone to be able to steal and resell them. If that happens, she stops making much money, and then has to go back and find another job, so she stops writing. This is so blindingly obvious I don't know how anyone can fail to understand it.

We pirates won this war already. Go ahead, pay $20 an album if you want. I don't care if you give your hard earned dollars to the record company. I have thousands of movies and albums, all entirely at no cost to myself. Studios in hollywood spend millions making films and I get them at zero cost. You want to pay full sticker price? Be my guest.

Carry that thieving attitude into adulthood. It'll work for a while. But one day a brick wall is going to fall on you.

[Guest Derek L]

The Beatles wrote a song about that a while back. Maybe you can steal a copy and give it a listen.

Good Call:

You say you'll change the constitution

Well, you know

We all want to change your head

Anyone hear the rumor about Lennon, prior to his death, being a fan of Reagan?

Edited September 18, 2011 by Derek L

[Argus]

A bit of a flawed analogy, since 1) you are born in the clubhouse, and 2) the entire habitable world is claimed by one club or another.

No one said life was supposed to be fair. The analogy stands in that his comfortable existence here depends on the infrastructure built up to allow this society to thrive. He benefits from everything in it. And I haven't seen him suggesting he doesn't WANT to benefit. On the contrary, he wants to have access to all the goodies, but not pay anything.

Hey, he can go and live in the deep woods if he wants, away from roads and electricity and build himself a log cabin. Without a job he won't have to pay taxes, nor will he be making use of our infrastructure. That would be fair.

[Bonam]

Hey, he can go and live in the deep woods if he wants, away from roads and electricity and build himself a log cabin. Without a job he won't have to pay taxes, nor will he be making use of our infrastructure. That would be fair.

Pretty sure that would be illegal. The land in the deep woods he'd build his cabin on is government owned, and felling trees and building a cabin there is I'm sure against some regulation. Hunting animals or fishing out there for food without getting some kind of permit would also probably be illegal. He might go unnoticed for a while, but probably not forever.

If going out in the deep woods and building your own homestead and using the unclaimed resources in the area was not made illegal by the government I'd agree with you that that would be an adequate outlet for people with Zachary's mindset. He could gather a few like-minded people and they could build a little village and live happily ever after.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Bonam

[jacee]

Then you have to get out of the clubhouse, which is called Canada.

He can leave freely of course, but no person can be left stateless.

He could give up his health card freely though, since he's pholosophically opposed.

[Zachary Young]

Then you have to get out of the clubhouse, which is called Canada.

No thanks. I was born in this country. This is my land. I won't let some vicious, greedy thugs ruin it for me. I've got a better idea - why don't you stop shilling for the largest criminal organization in this country? It will help you sleep better at night.

[Squeakbox]

A bit of a flawed analogy, since 1) you are born in the clubhouse, and 2) the entire habitable world is claimed by one club or another.

I wouldn't trust any other club right now... they're all falling apart and probably infested with cockroaches (economy and social issues)...

[Zachary Young]

This club aint so hot either. Owing to decades of economic interventionism and the high taxes praised by those on these boards we are rapidly becoming a third world nation. An obsession with egalitarianism and the general outlook that if something isn't done by the government it cannot be done at all has set our society back greatly. As Ludwig von Mises pointed out the endgame of the interventionist state is complete and total socialism. That is the direction our society is heading in. With socialism comes totalitarianism. Big brother is just around the corner. No society can sustain a fiat money supply, no society can sustain this level of collectivism and interventionism. If we do not repeal 80 years of terrible domestic policy we are in for a very rough 21st century indeed.

[Smallc]

This club aint so hot either. Owing to decades of economic interventionism and the high taxes praised by those on these boards we are rapidly becoming a third world nation.

What?

[Guest Derek L]

No thanks. I was born in this country. This is my land. I won't let some vicious, greedy thugs ruin it for me. I've got a better idea - why don't you stop shilling for the largest criminal organization in this country? It will help you sleep better at night.

Do you hold the title/deed?

Zachary, you do realize, all the ideas that you have been proposing will never come to fruition?

Your dream of a free market Libertarian state taking root within Canada has about the same likelihood of happening as some other idealistic members call for a socialist workers collective……..In other words, zero.

You best focus your energy into the realm of possibility, if as you mentioned, you wish to one day become (financially) successful……….

[Squeakbox]

This club aint so hot either. Owing to decades of economic interventionism and the high taxes praised by those on these boards we are rapidly becoming a third world nation.

What?

I think he's talking about the states...

[jacee]

I think he's talking about the states...

Naaa ... he's talking about Canada,

And he hasn't offered to give up his health card yet.

What about it Zack?

Are you revoking your card or not?

[Jack Weber]

Do you hold the title/deed?

Zachary, you do realize, all the ideas that you have been proposing will never come to fruition?

Your dream of a free market Libertarian state taking root within Canada has about the same likelihood of happening as some other idealistic members call for a socialist workers collective……..In other words, zero.

You best focus your energy into the realm of possibility, if as you mentioned, you wish to one day become (financially) successful……….

You've just described the mindset of those at both rabble.ca and freedominion.ca...

Edited September 18, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Pliny]

And of course, we all bear the collective responsibility for correcting the broken system we have allowed to occur on our watch. It matters not what the sick obsessed wealth hoarders think: They are sick thinkers. We must re-patriate that part of their wealth that is obscenely derived at society's expense and take back control of the flow of commonly held resources.

And this is where both lobbyists (communicators) and people's feet become the tools of constructive change.

X

Why doesn't government just legalize theft? Sounds like that is what you would like to see.

You could be deputized to run around and seize people's property.

I think you are forgetting a basic function of government is the security of person and property. If there isn't that for all of us then there is no justice.

[dre]

Much innovation occurs because someone had a good idea, worked hard at developing it, and produced a product, or a work which no one had thought of before.

What you wish to do is remove all reward for those who do this. You want to instead allow others, who didn't have that idea, who didn't work hard to develop it, to profit from someone else's work and imagination. This will pretty much remove any reason for anyone to spend their time, money and effort at developing new products or producing new drugs, new art, new stories or movies or music. It would result in a dull, static society much like the Soviet Union, where there was no reward for hard work or innovation.

Under your system, Apple would never have become a huge company, nor would Microsoft. As soon as they came out with their operating systems a dozen companies would have simply copied them, comma for comma, instruction for instruction, and resold them under their own names. And all the other high tech startups which began with a few guys working 18hr days in their garages to come out with a new product would never have occurred, because the moment they announced their new system or product big companies would have copied them and resold them so that the guys in the garage realized very little profit. People would stop bothering, and we never would have had Silicon Valley, and all the innovation which came from there.

What you wish to do is remove all reward for those who do this. You want to instead allow others, who didn't have that idea, who didn't work hard to develop it, to profit from someone else's work and imagination. This will pretty much remove any reason for anyone to spend their time, money and effort at developing new products or producing new drugs, new art, new stories or movies or music.

I dont buy that for a second. The inventors I know are obsessed with invention itself, not just potential commercialization. Much of the greatest art, music, literature, and invention in human history came long before intellectual property law.

Its also not true that removing intellectual property rights would remove "all reward". The origional creator still gets first movers advantage. Millions of people get rich from selling products that are not patented.

Im dont think I would get rid of IP rights completely but I would definately scale them back. They were origionally meant to give the creator temporary protection while he got his product to the market.

The other problem is that the patent process is made intentionally cumbersome and expensive, and inventors often wind up signing over their rights to others.

I invented and patented a plastic handle that attaches to a fishing rod. Its made and marketed by Scotty (the company that makes popular downriggers). It cost well over 10 thousand dollars to go through the process, and its basically just a piece of fukkin plastic.

I would GUT IP laws and make them a lot weaker. It would actually ENCOURAGE innovation not discourage it, because everyone would be free to work on improving ideas.

[Pliny]

Err... my point is exactly that the market does not, and will not eliminate those social ills.

My point is that government doesn't either.

In the US, at a cost of several trillion dollars between the LBJ sixties with the war on poverty and now the percentage of poor was 18 and it is now 15. A whopping 3% drop but if we wait we will see the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and we could lose that percentage.

Would the market do a better job? Perhaps if several trillion dollars were left in the economy we could have reached a 10% poverty level. we'll never know but I think generally that people suspect there is waste in government.

[Pliny]

On the point of IP, I don't agree with Zachary that getting things for free from artists, like downloading movies and music, is a correct viewpoint. This view however a sign of the society we live in where tings like health care and public education is "free". We have had free music and TV for over half a century thanks to advertisers who pay the production costs of getting the product to the consumer. The internet has changed the market forever. Artists don't want to give away their creations for free. But really the structure of the industry is what is changing. An artist if he wants to can set up his own website and sell a download of his works directly. The losers are the big promotion companies, the middlemen. Let's face it though no one is going to get rich unless their product is in demand. How does one get their product in demand? He either gives free samples or advertises it. If he is good and has talent he will make a decent living plus advertisers will want to advertise on his website and he will make a lot of money. The way th industry is set up now we do see some talent but most of it is a copy. All the dancing seems to go back to Michael Jackson days, Madonna set a bar and so did a few others but most are just a repetition of what production companies and marketers have found to be successful.

I like the internet method better as it isn't a packaged product churned out by an industry that just uses and molds talent to sell altered versions of originals anyway.

[Zachary Young]

Zachary, you do realize, all the ideas that you have been proposing will never come to fruition?

Your dream of a free market Libertarian state taking root within Canada has about the same likelihood of happening as some other idealistic members call for a socialist workers collective……..In other words, zero.

Actually, 100 years ago Canada WAS my dream of a free market libertarian state, so I don't think it's that unlikely it could happen again. History is not always an onwards and upwards march towards progress. Sometimes we regress.

[Zachary Young]

Naaa ... he's talking about Canada,

And he hasn't offered to give up his health card yet.

What about it Zack?

Are you revoking your card or not?

Not. For many years I did refuse to carry identification - at great personal hardship to myself - and I did pay, in cash, for the minor health care needs I had. If the government is going to steal all my money I am going to get what little table scraps I can for having to suffer the insult and injury of this theft.

[cybercoma]

we are rapidly becoming a third world nation.

What?

[cybercoma]

Actually, 100 years ago Canada WAS my dream of a free market libertarian state, so I don't think it's that unlikely it could happen again. History is not always an onwards and upwards march towards progress. Sometimes we regress.

100 years ago, Canada also had horrific labour practices, not the least of which involved shipping in children from the British Isles to work in incredibly dangerous environments for nothing more than a symbolic wage. Workers had very little protection both in terms of safety and job security, so there were many revolts and uprisings against the capitalist leadership. Your utopian free-market libertarian state never existed.

[Argus]

I dont buy that for a second. The inventors I know are obsessed with invention itself, not just potential commercialization.

The inventors you know? You mean tinkerers? Yes, on occasion, something innovative comes from tinkerers, but for the most part, what we're talking about are people who get together and spend 16hr days for months and years on end developing a system or gizmo. They can't do that and can't borrow the money to continue doing that without an expectation of reward.

Much of the greatest art, music, literature, and invention in human history came long before intellectual property law.

In times past great musicians, poets and artists had wealthy patrons which allowed them to focus on their art. this limited the number of painters, poets and musicians, of course, since only the very wealthy few could afford to subsidize such people, and of course, they retained their services for their own benefit and that of their friends. The common man, in other words, had virtually no access to any of it. Art was whatever the rich felt should be art. Same for poetry and music.

In essence, being able to sell your work to the mass of the public is what changed that. What he wants to do is go back to the old days, where the only painters, poets, musicians and writers who could actually work at their craft on something like a full time basis were those the rich supported with grants and patronage.

As for what the common man likes? Nobody will really care, right?

Its also not true that removing intellectual property rights would remove "all reward". The origional creator still gets first movers advantage.

That's nonsense, of course. You need startup money to create and develop a product. That means someone is loaning you money, bargaining you succeed and make a killing. You aren't going to do that without intellectual property. You just aren't. Original creator? What does that mean in an era where giant computerized factors can turn out a new product in a matter of days?

You come up with your shiny new gizmo, you show it to a factory owner and suggest they build it for you for a share of the profits. The factory owner decides to build it himself and the hell with you. Well, what can you do about it? Maybe you should have had your own factory ready to go so you could produce your own gizmo. Tough for you.

Millions of people get rich from selling products that are not patented.

Really? Got a list?

Im dont think I would get rid of IP rights completely but I would definately scale them back. They were origionally meant to give the creator temporary protection while he got his product to the market.

The product life cycle now is far longer, and the development costs far higher. It can take years to earn back what you paid for development before you're actually in the black. Or, as another example, if a picture costs $300 million to produce and distribute, it might not make that money back until many months have passed, until it's been in the theaters, gone overseas, and been released on DVDs. You want to let everyone start marketing their own knockoffs a week later? That means no more big budget pictures will be made.

Likewise an author might take two years to write a book. You want to give them a week to get it published then let everyone else copy and distribute that book?

I would GUT IP laws and make them a lot weaker. It would actually ENCOURAGE innovation not discourage it, because everyone would be free to work on improving ideas.

Yes, other people's ideas...