Gap between rich and poor rising faster in Canada

[Argus]

You don't seem to attribute any other factors other than hard work for this income gap.

What about

lack of access to education or learning disabilities

gender

racism

innate ability

family, and personal background

What about laziness? What about poor decision making? What about not bothering to study and finish school, but dropping out and doing drugs instead? What about not using birth control? What about taking responsibility to improve your lot in life?

What about being dumb? I mean, just as some people are really smart, some people are really dumb. Should the really dumb people make as much as the really smart people? And just as some people work their asses of, some people instead grow great big asses while they waddle back and forth between the fridge and the sofa. Should they make as much as the hard chargers?

[Argus]

All things that can be overcome with enough hard work.

Oh come now.

[Argus]

And MAYBE the richEST have ripped some people off along the way, ya think?

And maybe they haven't. Ya think about that?

[Argus]

Wealthy people are all criminals and thieves then?

Maybe we should just kill them all and sell their BMWs to people and give the money to the poor and then kill the fascists who bought the BMWs andf give that money to the poor too.

Then we have to kill the poor, because they have BMWs.

[CitizenX]

What about laziness? What about poor decision making? What about not bothering to study and finish school, but dropping out and doing drugs instead? What about not using birth control? What about taking responsibility to improve your lot in life?

What about being dumb? I mean, just as some people are really smart, some people are really dumb. Should the really dumb people make as much as the really smart people? And just as some people work their asses of, some people instead grow great big asses while they waddle back and forth between the fridge and the sofa. Should they make as much as the hard chargers?

I really don't know what side of the fence you are on. I agree with what you are saying, but I think you are taking what I have said out of context.

I agree most things can be overcome with hard work, But I'm talking about natural/unnatural disadvantages due to inequality that limit advancement. These are not excuses, these are facts.

I think it's easier to claim that you made it to the top through hard work rather than admitting that multiple factors had more to do with it. Maybe you came from a supportive family that was not abusive. Maybe your parents were able to send you to better schools. Maybe you were born with natural talents.

[Argus]

I really don't know what side of the fence you are on. I agree with what you are saying, but I think you are taking what I have said out of context.

I think that too much wealth is accumulating at or near the top, and the middle class is suffering. However, let's not loose sight of the facts in spouting cliche's. Some of those who are near the top deserve to be there, got there on their own, and in any right thinking society should enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Likewise, some of those at the bottom flat out deserve their positioning. I believe people need to take responsibility for their own poor choices in life, and it's not up to society to bail them out every time. Rather than suggesting that the government take more money away from those who made better decisions, who studied hard, worked hard, and give it to those who screwed up and find themselves poor, we need to have more programs to allow the poor to get ahead through their own efforts. By that I mean skills training and education. Oh, and throw in drug and alcohol treatment, too.

[CitizenX]

Some of those who are near the top deserve to be there, got there on their own, and in any right thinking society should enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Likewise, some of those at the bottom flat out deserve their positioning. I believe people need to take responsibility for their own poor choices in life, and it's not up to society to bail them out every time. Rather than suggesting that the government take more money away from those who made better decisions, who studied hard, worked hard, and give it to those who screwed up and find themselves poor, we need to have more programs to allow the poor to get ahead through their own efforts. By that I mean skills training and education. Oh, and throw in drug and alcohol treatment, too.

Yes this is where we agree people need to take responsibility for their own poor choices in life. I strike out the word poor because some people are happy with less, and have no desire for riches. That is a personal choice. I think where we disagree is that people don't reach the top level through hard work alone. And just because you are poor doesn't make you lazy. I have no room for this type of generalizations.

"Oh, and throw in drug and alcohol treatment, too". That is cold and heartless. Just because had a great upbringing doesn't mean everyone has.

Edited September 13, 2011 by CitizenX

[cybercoma]

I think that too much wealth is accumulating at or near the top, and the middle class is suffering. However, let's not loose sight of the facts in spouting cliche's. Some of those who are near the top deserve to be there, got there on their own, and in any right thinking society should enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

I certainly agree; however, given that the increase in income disparity is related to social pathologies within that society, mediated by an inverse relationship in social cohesion, we should have an honest discussion about how much concentration of wealth, which is limited, is acceptable. Otherwise, discontent will rise to a boiling point and blow up in the face of the "economic elite". People seem to be losing sight of the fact that our social systems were designed to allow those at the top to keep their wealth without fear of revolts from those below them.

[CitizenX]

People seem to be losing sight of the fact that our social systems were designed to allow those at the top to keep their wealth without fear of revolts from those below them.

Am I the only one that see's similarities between what's happening today and the beginning of the French Revolution.

[Argus]

Yes this is where we agree people need to take responsibility for their own poor choices in life. I strike out the word poor because some people are happy with less, and have no desire for riches. That is a personal choice. I think where we disagree is that people don't reach the top level through hard work alone. And just because you are poor doesn't make you lazy. I have no room for this type of generalizations.

"Oh, and throw in drug and alcohol treatment, too". That is cold and heartless. Just because had a great upbringing doesn't mean everyone has.

Actually, my father was an aeronautical engineer and an officer in the RCAF who supervised teams of men who maintained fighter jets.

By the time he was in his fifties, he was a security guard whose bag clanked with the beer bottles he was taking to his night shift job. Alcohol and drug problems are a major factor in crime and poverty for many people.

[Argus]

I certainly agree; however, given that the increase in income disparity is related to social pathologies within that society, mediated by an inverse relationship in social cohesion, we should have an honest discussion about how much concentration of wealth, which is limited, is acceptable. Otherwise, discontent will rise to a boiling point and blow up in the face of the "economic elite". People seem to be losing sight of the fact that our social systems were designed to allow those at the top to keep their wealth without fear of revolts from those below them.

I don't entirely disagree, but then I've spoken before of my admiration for the Scandinavian countries so I wouldn't mind emulating many of their programs on social equality.

BTW, that admiration has nothing to do with ideology. It has to do with my admiration for a system which clearly works very well for the great majority of the citizens who live there, greater, it would appear, than ours does for most of us.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Argus

[CitizenX]

Actually, my father was an aeronautical engineer and an officer in the RCAF who supervised teams of men who maintained fighter jets.

By the time he was in his fifties, he was a security guard whose bag clanked with the beer bottles he was taking to his night shift job. Alcohol and drug problems are a major factor in crime and poverty for many people.

I'm not sure I'm following?

I understand that "Alcohol and drug problems are a major factor in crime and poverty for many people." But child abuse is a major factor in developing Alcohol and drug problems and becoming a criminal. Not every child is brought up in a stable family, and therefore doesn't have the advantages others have.

Edited September 14, 2011 by CitizenX

[Michael Hardner]

I don't entirely disagree, but then I've spoken before of my admiration for the Scandinavian countries so I wouldn't mind emulating many of their programs on social equality.

My perspective on their systems is that they engage with their problems, full force. They see crime and social issues as problems that need to be dealt with. We just cut people a cheque or put them into a faceless system. Those systems cost money, though.

[Argus]

My perspective on their systems is that they engage with their problems, full force. They see crime and social issues as problems that need to be dealt with. We just cut people a cheque or put them into a faceless system. Those systems cost money, though.

You mean we wouldn't be able to afford those big assed SUV's so many city people use to get around in? Awwwwww.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Most of Canada's rich are self made. At least they've acquired it, through ethical or unethical means, on their own

One problem with the widening gap is clear. The Rich don't face economic realities. They get bailed out by the average worker's money... and even then the rich will just skim off the top of average workers salary and benefits to maintain their wealth. Their wage will continuously go up while the average worker wage stagnates.

That is exactly what conservatives on this board consistently advocate for. Support the wealthy! They need your money more than you do!

Edited September 14, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Am I the only one that see's similarities between what's happening today and the beginning of the French Revolution.

No.

[Rick]

Am I the only one that see's similarities between what's happening today and the beginning of the French Revolution.

No and it can't happen here soon enough for my liking.

Argus seems to think that the poor are simply lazy rather than believe they often work 70+ hours per week in their jobs just to survive let alone put anything away in savings.

But somehow I get the feeling he's never experienced what today's blue collar'd worker has to go through.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Rick

[jacee]

... we should have an honest discussion about how much concentration of wealth, which is limited, is acceptable. Otherwise, discontent will rise to a boiling point and blow up in the face of the "economic elite". People seem to be losing sight of the fact that our social systems were designed to allow those at the top to keep their wealth without fear of revolts from those below them.

Hear hear!

Well said.

Every time times get tougher, wealth becomes more concentrated in the top 1percent and consumer and public debt skyrockets and big investors with an inside line reap megaprofits and STASH IT OFF SHORE UNTAXED, MONEY SUCKED FROM THE LABOUR OF THE OTHER 99percent of us.

And don't kid yourself about who works harder ... nobody works as hard as a roofer or a ditchdigger or their wives with 3 preschoolers.

Smarter maybe ... but is preying on others an ethical trade?

What 's wrong with this picture?

Edited September 14, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

You mean we wouldn't be able to afford those big assed SUV's so many city people use to get around in? Awwwwww.

The real jazzed up honkers and hummers on soon to be occupied Bay Street?

[Guest Derek L]

Hear hear!

Well said.

Every time times get tougher, wealth becomes more concentrated in the top 1percent and consumer and public debt skyrockets and big investors with an inside line reap megaprofits and STASH IT OFF SHORE UNTAXED, MONEY SUCKED FROM THE LABOUR OF THE OTHER 99percent of us.

And don't kid yourself about who works harder ... nobody works as hard as a roofer or a ditchdigger or their wives with 3 preschoolers.

Smarter maybe ... but is preying on others an ethical trade?

What 's wrong with this picture?

But is it my fault that the ditch digger and roofer, became, well a ditch digger and a roofer?

And don’t think for a second that swinging a hatchet all day cutting through red tape and shovelling money into the pockets of the muti-nationals isn’t hard work…….I feel a Bruce Springsteen or John Cougar Mellancamp song coming on

[jacee]

But is it my fault that the ditch digger and roofer, became, well a ditch digger and a roofer?

And don’t think for a second that swinging a hatchet all day cutting through red tape and shovelling money into the pockets of the muti-nationals isn’t hard work…….I feel a Bruce Springsteen or John Cougar Mellancamp song coming on

Gee ... thanks for sharing.

[Guest Derek L]

Gee ... thanks for sharing.

My point still stands.....You a fan of Hockey? Ever see the “Green Men” at Canucks home games? Well “their box seats” are those of a very successful local business man……..What did this man make his money at? Roofing and Drainage……He’s a great guy, did my draintile and roof a few years ago……….The rich didn’t hold this ditch digger/roofer back……….

[dre]

I think that too much wealth is accumulating at or near the top, and the middle class is suffering. However, let's not loose sight of the facts in spouting cliche's. Some of those who are near the top deserve to be there, got there on their own, and in any right thinking society should enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

I dont think it has anything to do with what anyone "deserves". Most of the people that get wealthy are just playing the way capitalists are supposed to.

The problem is that the framework is broken. It makes it too easy to simply use money to make more money, and our whole system is rewording WORK less and less, and rewarding INVESTMENT more and more.

It wont stay stable if things continue on their present course for too long... and things could get ugly. Im not sure what that tipping point will be, but I know its there. I wonder how wealth distribution now compares with wealth distribution during the aristocracy or prior to the French and Russian revolutions.

[jacee]

Am I the only one that see's similarities between what's happening today and the beginning of the French Revolution.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_French_Revolution

Although France in 1789 faced economic difficulties, mostly concerning the equitability of taxation, it was one of the richest and most[ 1] powerful nations of Europe.[ 1. The French people also enjoyed more political freedom and a lower ncidence of arbitrary punishment than any of their fellow Europeans. However, Louis XVI, his ministers and the widespread French nobility had become mmensely unpopular. This was a consequence of the fact that peasants and, to a lesser extent, the bourgeoisie, were burdened with ruinously-high taxes levied to support wealthy aristocrats and their[ 2] sumptuous, often gluttonous, lifestyles.[ 2]

The fall of the ancien régime in France may be blamed, in part, on its own rigidity. Aristocrats were confronted by the rising ambitions of the merchants, tradesmen and prosperous farmers who were allied with aggrieved peasants, wage- earners and intellectuals influenced by the ideas of Enlightenment philosophers.

Edited September 14, 2011 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

Although France in 1789 faced economic difficulties, mostly concerning the equitability of taxation, it was one of the richest and most[ 1] powerful nations of Europe.[ 1] The French people powerful nations of Europe. The French people also enjoyed more political freedom and a lower ncidence of arbitrary punishment than any of their fellow Europeans. However, Louis XVI, his ministers and the widespread French nobility had become mmensely unpopular. This was a consequence of the fact that peasants and, to a lesser extent, the the fact that peasants and, to a lesser extent, the bourgeoisie, were burdened with ruinously-high taxes levied to support wealthy aristocrats and their[ 2] sumptuous, often gluttonous, lifestyles.[ 2] sumptuous, often gluttonous, lifestyles. The fall of the ancien régime in France may be blame

The fall of the ancien régime in France may be blamed, in part, on its own rigidity. Aristocrats were confronted by the rising ambitions of the merchants, tradesmen and prosperous farmers who were allied with aggrieved peasants, wage- earners and intellectuals influenced by the ideas of Enlightenment philosophers.

I think you screwed up on your cutting and pasting........Where are you linking from?