Gap between rich and poor rising faster in Canada

[BubberMiley]

Hey. let's redistribute the wealth before it is earned....that will be a great incentive...

We already do. Is that your excuse for not being able to afford NHL tickets?

[CPCFTW]

Care to elaborate at all?

Printing money isn't the same as issuing treasury bills. Public debt occurs from the latter.

[fellowtraveller]

We already do. Is that your excuse for not being able to afford NHL tickets?

Yes, I already knew that your home province insists on getting more than its share of the wealth of Canada.

But speaking of hockey, let me compliment your Jets on the rollout of the new jerseys.

I especially liked the marketing coup of having four Jetsplayers dressed in their snazzy new Jets gear, while emerging from a Canadian Forces Hercules(propeller driven) aircraft.

Was it a local ad agency that came up with that winner?

[jacee]

Canada

A May 2008 study by Léo-Paul Lauzon of the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM) estimated, conservatively, that   Canadian banks avoided $16 billion in taxes between 1993 and 2007. .

- Banque Royale du Canada,

Banque Toronto Dominion

– Groupe Financier Banque TD,

Banque Scotia – La Banque de Nouvelle-Écosse,

Banque de Montréal – BMO Groupe financier,

Banque Canadienne Impériale de Commerce – CIBC

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcat=103

[Smallc]

I especially liked the marketing coup of having four Jetsplayers dressed in their snazzy new Jets gear, while emerging from a Canadian Forces Hercules(propeller driven) aircraft.

uhh, that would be because at current, there is only one aircraft flown out of 17 wing.....the C-130H. They did though, have a CF-18 on hand.

[cybercoma]

It’s almost like there’s no clear-cut definition/reason on why some are “wealthy” and some “middle class and some “poor”

Which is why, ethically, we have a collective responsibility to support our "poor", by doing whatever it is we can to get them back on their feet. All the while, we need to keep examining the system to ensure that it is not unfairly biased against them or making it more difficult for them to overcome their situation.

[dre]

Which is why, ethically, we have a collective responsibility to support our "poor", by doing whatever it is we can to get them back on their feet. All the while, we need to keep examining the system to ensure that it is not unfairly biased against them or making it more difficult for them to overcome their situation.

I disagree on the characterization of programs to help the poor as a collective ethical responsibility. I know thats how its framed today by people having this argument (especially ideologs), but it misses the point.

The social safety net is not something thats born out of either ethics or altruism, and its not for the benefit of the poor. Its for the benefit of the people who pay for it (the upper and middle class). Its there to promote stability which is essential in order to have the kind of economy that allows the middle and upper classes to grow their wealth. These programs, while they do require the upper and middle classes to surrender some of their income, actually result in those people have way way way more money and wealth than they would have without the social safety net.

The programs are an essential part of what makes our society one of the easiest places to accumulate wealth in the history of human civilization.

And despite the bogus claims that the rich are the target of "class warfare" there has never been a society more conducive to the interests of the wealthy than ours.

In other words... Even if a person believes that they have no ethical responsibility to help maintain a baseline standard of living for the poor, they should still feel compelled to do so for their own personal selfish interest.

Edited September 15, 2011 by dre

[fellowtraveller]

uhh, that would be because at current, there is only one aircraft flown out of 17 wing.....the C-130H. They did though, have a CF-18 on hand.

Oh I see. They had no choice, none at all. It was impossible to do anything else that might somehow connect the Jets with a jet.

[BubberMiley]

Oh I see. They had no choice, none at all. It was impossible to do anything else that might somehow connect the Jets with a jet.

Maybe they felt that no one would care. Little did they know those who insisted the team would never exist would care a great deal.

[GostHacked]

Printing money isn't the same as issuing treasury bills. Public debt occurs from the latter.

Public debt occurrs from treasury bills? No matter what you call it, it is still total debt incurred upon future generations. Those treasury bills are worth no more than the fiat currency it is bought with. When people can't or won't pay taxes, all that quickly falls apart. Buy now, pay later, right? The current form of economics does not help out anyone in the long run but the rich and tyrannical governments controlled by said rich.

What is the difference between a person like me in 'middle class' compared to a poor person? The only difference is that I have a job. Take the job away, and I am out on my ass essentially. Should I expect the government to help me out when that time comes? AHAHAHAH, really?

Good thing I got those treasury bills!

[Guest Derek L]

What does their rate of income have to do with anything?

If they make so much less than you....you resent their opinions on such matters? What's one to do with the other?

So if someone makes roughly equal (or greater) income than you do...their opinions on the subject become more valid?

Yes and no……..I just don’t appreciate other people spending my money on other people, all the well telling me that people such as myself created the reason they need to spend my money on other people. Then to tell me I should be paying more.

Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.

Like the old saying, fear those with nothing to lose.

I have no problem paying taxes, as long as the money isn’t pissed away. The only way how I would truly think all Canadians are “paying their fair share” is if we did away with all forms of deductions, loop holes etc and brought in a “Flat tax” on all household income coupled with a national VAT. That’s fairness.

An average Canadian family with a household income of 100K paying 30% or 30K in taxes will feel the sting just as much as a 400k household paying 120K in taxes…….Throw in a VAT that is applied to near everything except food, basic clothing, pharmaceuticals/baby products, electricity and gasoline then all Canadians would be paying their “fair share”, and many who advocate increased social spending, after being equally stung by revenue Canada might change their tune.

But I appreciate this, Derek, the sort of reasoned sentiment that seems to symbolize your style.

I don't mind being characterized as naive and misguided; of course I don't think it's the case, but I'm open to the possibility, always.

But the notion that there's some sort of deep moral corruption in me that allows for my views is a non-starter. It's absurd.

Wrong? Possibly. Sinister--or a (financial) "loser"? Those are just factually incorrect.

All sides of the political spectrum have their zealots…….For those that purport to be right leaning, I’d suggest reading Goldwater’s Conscience of a Conservative before representing us at the trade show.

[Smallc]

Maybe they felt that no one would care. Little did they know those who insisted the team would never exist would care a great deal.

That's not what I'm saying. The Jets are a Winnipeg team. The RCAF Wing in Winnipeg flies the C-130H. Understand the connection?

[Bonam]

I love how you lack even the most rudimentary concept of what a communist is.

Actually, in the case of jacee, he's not far off.

[Argus]

What does their rate of income have to do with anything?

If they make so much less than you....you resent their opinions on such matters? What's one to do with the other?

So if someone makes roughly equal (or greater) income than you do...their opinions on the subject become more valid?

I don't find it unreasonable to look askance at people demanding higher taxes when they themselves pay no taxes while still enjoying all the benefits of the government you already pay so much to support.

[Argus]

I love how you lack even the most rudimentary concept of what a communist is.

Do you also love how the OP lacks even the most rudimentary concept of what a fascist is?

[Guest Derek L]

I'm not accusing you. I'm accusing the top 1percent holders of 40percent of the wealth, and increasing their share at the expense of the other 99percent of us (including you).

As the incomes of the 'middle class' become increasingly too low to support their families, to low to pay much in taxes to support infrastructure, and too low to consume the products of business and industry ... where do you think the 1percent predators are looking to next?

They're looking at you.

And don't kid yourself that if you defend them, they'll defend you. Sociopathic predators don't work that way.

The increasing income gap between the wealthiEST and the rest of us is a clear sign of decadence and immorality in economic systems, the kind of sign that should set alarm bells ringing among the ordinarily wealthy like you: Something is dreadfully amiss, and while you are not the target of the unrest, by defending the obscene wealth of the unethical predators with more than their share of the wealth, you place yourself in the crossfire.

I am sure you are aware that among the obscenely wealthy there are those who, unlike you, DO NOT pay their fair share in taxes but hide their wealth OFFSHORE.They are the targets. They are the bloodsucking leeches. You are just one of the misguided pawns who defend them. Why, I'm not sure.

Shouldn't all Canadians be protesting those who leach money out of our country and undermine our economy?

Eta:

http://mobile.forbes.com/device/article.php?CALL_URL=http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0719/opinions-taxation-tax-havens-banking-on-my-mind.html?

Thus the rationale for "occupy wall street" ... and Bay Street and other centres of financial piracy globally.

It is NOT about people who work hard and smart and pay their taxes: It's about the CRIMINALS who DON'T, and the CRIMINAL banking institutions that facilitate these CRIMES against the rest of the Canadian people.

You want to make everything fair……as I said above, do away with all forms of deductions, tax shelters and loop holes and make a flat tax for all Canadians.

[jacee]

Which is why, ethically, we have a collective responsibility to support our "poor" ...

I certainly agree.

However the 'rich vs poor' discussion is irrelevant, a red herring, a ploy to distract us from the discussion we really need to be having about predatory mega-wealth: The wealth currently being increasingly transferred to the mega-rich is not coming from the "poor" (who have negative 'wealth' already). It is being funnelled from the middle and higher income households into the mega-coffers of already obscene wealth.

It's estimated that the top 1percent of wealth holders with 40percent of the REPORTED wealth, stash a third of their wealth offshore, untaxed and UNREPORTED.

My admittedly rough calculations suggest that in the past 10 years, that amounts to over $500b in taxes that should have been paid in Canadian taxes missing from our federal treasury. Canada's debt has ballooned in that 10 years and now stands (coincidentally?) at over $560b and rising. We are paying $35b a year to service that debt and have an estimated deficit this year of (coincidentally?) $40b.

Payment of just those 10 years of evaded taxes would virtually wipe out Canada's debt. Continual payment of ALL of their taxes would wipe out the annual deficit.

Forget the poorest 20percent. They are already sucked dry. The sucking noise is emanating from the middle and higher income 79percent of us and going into the offshore accounts of the wealthiest 1percent.

We all believe that 'work hard and smart to get ahead' is an important value.

Do we believe that "smart" includes criminal tax evasion that victimizes 99percent of Canadians?

Is that to be admired, defended, aspired to?

Is it to be tolerated?

[jacee]

Actually, in the case of jacee, he's not far off.

SHE. Can't figure out how to add gender to profile. Oh well.

I claim my right to hang out a shingle, open a shop, etc. and pay my fair share of taxes along with other entreprenurial Canadians.

What I despise is not capitalism per se, but predatory capitalism/corporatism that controls government to its advantage, evades taxes and takes more than its share of the wealth while demonizing the poor, the unions and anyone else they choose, eg by calling them "communist".

I also despise the bankers who facilitate the tax evasion of the predatory wealthy.

Is that clearer?

[Guest Derek L]

I certainly agree.

However the 'rich vs poor' discussion is irrelevant, a red herring, a ploy to distract us from the discussion we really need to be having about predatory mega-wealth: The wealth currently being increasingly transferred to the mega-rich is not coming from the "poor" (who have negative 'wealth' already). It is being funnelled from the middle and higher income households into the mega-coffers of already obscene wealth.

It's estimated that the top 1percent of wealth holders with 40percent of the REPORTED wealth, stash a third of their wealth offshore, untaxed and UNREPORTED.

My admittedly rough calculations suggest that in the past 10 years, that amounts to over $500b in taxes that should have been paid in Canadian taxes missing from our federal treasury. Canada's debt has ballooned in that 10 years and now stands (coincidentally?) at over $560b and rising. We are paying $35b a year to service that debt and have an estimated deficit this year of (coincidentally?) $40b.

Payment of just those 10 years of evaded taxes would virtually wipe out Canada's debt. Continual payment of ALL of their taxes would wipe out the annual deficit.

Forget the poorest 20percent. They are already sucked dry. The sucking noise is emanating from the middle and higher income 79percent of us and going into the offshore accounts of the wealthiest 1percent.

We all believe that 'work hard and smart to get ahead' is an important value.

Do we believe that "smart" includes criminal tax evasion that victimizes 99percent of Canadians?

Is that to be admired, defended, aspired to?

Is it to be tolerated?

I would get onboard you with your “workers struggle” to do away with all forms of tax shelters/loop holes/deductions if you also advocated that all Canadians paid the same rate of tax (And not 100% )

[jacee]

An average Canadian family with a household income of 100K ...

If everyone under $100k is then tax exempt, then we'll get back to you on that offer.

That's not average.

Average isn't a good measure in Canada.

A few MEGAhigh incomes skew the data upwards such that the vast bulk of PEOPLE fall below the 'average'.

So ... work out the numbers - find your own data.

I can't load statscan tables.

But let me know what percentage of Canadians would be below the 'average' and would be tax exempt in your concept of 30percent tax for every family over

$100k and none for those below that.

Median for two parent families with children 2008 was $65,000..

I wonder in general what people think of of the fact that

In the past 10 years, amounts equal to the federal debt and deficit have been stolen from scrutiny and hoarded UNTAXED OFFSHORE.

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

I would get onboard you with your “workers struggle” to do away with all forms of tax shelters/loop holes/deductions if you also advocated that all Canadians paid the same rate of tax (And not 100% )

So you're good with immediate return of all offshore monies,

?

How? When? We are all accumulating debt due to unpaid taxes by the wealthiEST 1percent with 60percent of the wealth of Canada, 20percent the wealth of Canada with unpaid taxes owing to the other 99percent of us.

Then we'll talk tax reform.

And to some of the other99percent of us, it is time for action.

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

If everyone under $100k is then tax exempt, then we'll get back to you on that offer.

That's not average.

Average isn't a good measure in Canada.

A few MEGAhigh incomes skew the data upwards such that the vast bulk of PEOPLE fall below the 'average'.

So ... work out the numbers - find your own data.

I can't load statscan tables.

But let me know what percentage of Canadians would be below the 'average' and would be tax exempt in your concept of 30percent tax for every family over

$100k and none for those below that.

Median for two parent families with children 2008 was $65,000..

I wonder in general what people think of of the fact that

In the past 10 years, amounts equal to the federal debt and deficit have been stolen from scrutiny and hoarded UNTAXED OFFSHORE.

Well, that’s the rub……..No Canadian should be exempt…..rich, middle class, poor…….Butchers, Bankers, Candle stick makers and Indian Chiefs……..You want to make a case for getting rid of exemptions/deductions/shelters that favour the “rich”, well so should the ones made for the “poor”……..fair is fair……..Are you opposed to equal rights?

30% is an arbitrary number, and I’d be more than willing to examine that number being lowered to 20-15%………..I remember in one of Milton Freidman’s books (Capitalism and Freedom) that under one of his proposals for a flat tax, doing away with exemptions etc, well lowering the (equal) rate for all Americans (circa early 1960s) would actually see an increase in government revenue………I don’t have the book in front of me, but I’ll see if I can find some references online later.

If the “rich” are no longer able to hide most of their income (as you say), wouldn’t taxing them on x% generally see an increase in government revenue? That family with an income of 100k paying 30k/% is feeling the same pinch on their income in terms of perspective as I do paying 120k in tax as a percentage of my income.

[jacee]

Well, that’s the rub……..No Canadian should be exempt…..rich, middle class, poor…….Butchers, Bankers, Candle stick makers and Indian Chiefs……..You want to make a case for getting rid of exemptions/deductions/shelters that favour the “rich”, well so should the ones made for the “poor”……..fair is fair……..Are you opposed to equal rights?

30% is an arbitrary number, and I’d be more than willing to examine that number being lowered to 20-15%………..I remember in one of Milton Freidman’s books (Capitalism and Freedom) that under one of his proposals for a flat tax, doing away with exemptions etc, well lowering the (equal) rate for all Americans (circa early 1960s) would actually see an increase in government revenue………I don’t have the book in front of me, but I’ll see if I can find some references online later.

If the “rich” are no longer able to hide most of their income (as you say), wouldn’t taxing them on x% generally see an increase in government revenue? That family with an income of 100k paying 30k/% is feeling the same pinch on their income in terms of perspective as I do paying 120k in tax as a percentage of my income.

NO tax amnesty applies.

Criminal punishment applies.

Everything is on the table.

And ... please tell me when you find out what percentage of Canadians - all ages, all men women and children - fall below the 'average'.

[Bob]

So you're good with immediate return of all offshore monies,

?

How? When? We are all accumulating debt due to unpaid taxes by the wealthiEST 1percent with 60percent of the wealth of Canada, 20percent the wealth of Canada with unpaid taxes owing to the other 99percent of us.

Then we'll talk tax reform.

And to some of the other99percent of us, it is time for action.

My God, you are so anti-wealth is it sickening. You are literally a caricature of the unemployed and uneducated leftist rebel without a clue wearing the Che Guevara t-shirt and lionizing Castro and the "beautiful healthcare system" of Cuba. People like you really sicken me.

[jacee]

My God, you are so anti-wealth is it sickening. You are literally a caricature of the unemployed and uneducated leftist rebel without a clue wearing the Che Guevara t-shirt and lionizing Castro and the "beautiful healthcare system" of Cuba. People like you really sicken me.

Just anti-OFFSHORE UNTAXED Canadian wealth of the top 1percent of wealth holders, Bob.

And someone who would say that Canadians shouldn't be building schools for "those animals" in Afghanistan?

Well someone like that would turn my stomach too.

No revolution is painless, nor is it always wealth-vs-communists.

And my suggestions are just about criminals with unpaid taxes.

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee