Sir Bandelot Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 Well y'all can deflect if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Look at the arguments being made. It's not a criticism of the US per se, but trying to demonstrate that private health care has its own problems and is not necessarily better than the one we have now. In particular that people with low incomes could get inferior services when they have to pay extra. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 Why even bring it up ? I was on a podcast with someone who defended the Canadian system, and I asked her why. I then counted in my head how long it took her to bring up the U.S. system and it took less than 30 seconds. It's weird. Plenty of people in this thread argued that the US system is better and there wouldn't be a problem if Canada implemented a full two-tier system. Did you call that 'weird'? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 Plenty of people in this thread argued that the US system is better and there wouldn't be a problem if Canada implemented a full two-tier system. Did you call that 'weird'? No, but I'm not obliged to argue with every point of view either. I don't think the American system should be adopted, but I don't think that there's any chance that that will happen either. My feeling is that those of us who prefer the Canadian system should be talking about ways to improve it, rather than just defend it against the US system. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 ....My feeling is that those of us who prefer the Canadian system should be talking about ways to improve it, rather than just defend it against the US system. Precisely....particularly when it has been demonstrated that the "US system" excess capacity is used to make up for shortfalls in the "Canadian system". The politics of wait times is a fun game, but does little to improve health care delivery. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Sir Bandelot Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) No, but I'm not obliged to argue with every point of view either. I don't think the American system should be adopted, but I don't think that there's any chance that that will happen either. My feeling is that those of us who prefer the Canadian system should be talking about ways to improve it, rather than just defend it against the US system. And I have done exactly that, in several recent posts on this forum. Without invoking the United States. I've also said all health care systems are having problems in one form or another, and need constant maintenance. This article caught my eye and I felt it was a good counter to those who are advocating a private system and using the US as their example of one that works well. Simply put, there are some who refuse to believe that a private system would ignore the needs of those who can't pay. But there is evidence that is precisely what can happen. And this article shows it. Yet you and others don't want to address that point, but instead try to tell me not to bring it up. Thanks for feeding the trolls. Edited August 31, 2011 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Michael Hardner Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 And I have done exactly that, in several recent posts on this forum. Without invoking the United States. Indeed you have. Thank you. Simply put, there are some who refuse to believe that a private system would ignore the needs of those who can't pay. But there is evidence that is precisely what can happen. And this article shows it. Yet you and others don't want to address that point, but instead try to tell me not to bring it up. I don't want to address that point, because I don't think a purely private system is in the cards. You have made some good points as to how to improve our system. I'm sorry, I guess it's just a pet peeve of mine that the debate on healthcare always comes down to the same old US vs Canada debate. To your credit, you weren't doing that on this thread. Thanks for feeding the trolls. Not at all. I think that the Canada VS US debate is more troll-like in that it sinks us into a comfortable discussion where we don't have to address the fact that we don't really understand what is wrong with our own system. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Sir Bandelot Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) No problem. No harm done. I did highlight the most significant part of the post. This relates back to the question in the OP, "Why is everybody so afraid of introducing user-fees and private pay?" I think it is not a criticism of US, since that system does have good medical competency. Rather that the failure of a private system shows itself in subtle but insidious ways. It's not that the services aren't available, but that people simply won't go for them. Edited August 31, 2011 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Michael Hardner Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 And I'm not against offering some private aspect, but I'm more concerned that we don't have a good mechanism to integrate input from public, patients, and stakeholders. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
fellowtraveller Posted August 31, 2011 Report Posted August 31, 2011 My feeling is that those of us who prefer the Canadian system should be talking about ways to improve it, rather than just defend it against the US systemGood point.France has what is regarded by many as one of the best if not the best system in the world, and it has some elements we do not: - user fees. Everybody pays to see a doctor every time, poor folks get it back. - a much higher number of doctors per capita, about 50% more than Caada. This factor alone would dramatically reduce the wait times for routine procedures. Quote The government should do something.
Argus Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 You seem to be someone that's always looking for problems, and always seeing greener grass somewhere else. It definitely colours your views on the issues. It also doesn't help that you believe everyone disagreeing with you is being emotional, while it's you that is in fact being emotional. Hmm. You and he are a good pairing then. You've always struck me as someone who ignores problems, or blithely explains them away if at all possible. Health care? Why, it's great! No problems! Best in the world, by gum! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 more likely you like others have a story that you're trying to fit the facts to and if they don't you ignore those facts...canadian healthcare administration has been found to be much more efficient than US private healthcare over and over again but despite that you look for evidence to the contrary... I don't remember him writing that. Maybe you could point it out to me where ANYONE has suggested we use the US health care model, or that there's any efficiency in it, or that it's bureacracy is smaller than ours... Is our bureacracy more efficient than Germany health care? Than Swedish health care? Than Austrian health care? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Well y'all can deflect if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Look at the arguments being made. It's not a criticism of the US per se, but trying to demonstrate that private health care has its own problems and is not necessarily better than the one we have now. In particular that people with low incomes could get inferior services when they have to pay extra. The problem with the U.S. system isn't that there's private health care, it's that there's no public health care except for the old and the poor. That and the ridiculous competition between hospitals which means that if you have five hospitals in a mid-sized city every one of them has to get all the fanciest, most expensive gear to compete with each other. Even if that means the machines are sitting idle 80% of the time. That's one of the reasons US health care is so ridiculously expensive -- that along with blood sucking insurance companies and greedhead pharmaceutical firms. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Plenty of people in this thread argued that the US system is better I've seen no such argument. Who would argue that but a troll? And if you're reading trolls maybe you should consider putting them on ignore so you can discuss things more intelligently. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Does any country talk as much about healthcare and not change it? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Does any country talk as much about healthcare and not change it? One of our problems is the seperation of responsibilities allows both sides to shrug and point vaugely at the other guy. What have the provinces done over the past twenty years to substantially improve health care? Nothing. What has the federal government done over the last twenty years to substantially improve health care? Nothing. The time to have done it, to be frank, was when the federal government had so much money in surpluses that Paul Martin was playing accounting games to hide the money. There was a golden opportunity then to make dramatic changes, and I don't mean simply funnelling more money into the pockets of health care workers and pharmaceutical firms. Unfortunately, the Liberals clearly didn't give a damn. Nor is it evident Harper does. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Smallc Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Hmm. You and he are a good pairing then. You've always struck me as someone who ignores problems, or blithely explains them away if at all possible. Health care? Why, it's great! No problems! Best in the world, by gum! Except that you're making that up....though there are fewer problems than some like to make out. I like to use actual facts most of the time. You and Wild Bill both share this fascination with your own opinion, no matter the facts. Quote
Wild Bill Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 Except that you're making that up....though there are fewer problems than some like to make out. I like to use actual facts most of the time. You and Wild Bill both share this fascination with your own opinion, no matter the facts. That's it! Once again I'm a personal target. Time to hit the 'ignore' button, AGAIN! Gave it a chance but it was a waste of time. Angus, you of course are free to make your own decision. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 That's it! Once again I'm a personal target. Time to hit the 'ignore' button, AGAIN! Gave it a chance but it was a waste of time. But that's just it, I haven't made you a target. I'm simply challenging you to bring actual facts to the table, of at least stop saying that you're the one bringing facts to the table when you clearly aren't. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 But that's just it, I haven't made you a target. I'm simply challenging you to bring actual facts to the table, of at least stop saying that you're the one bringing facts to the table when you clearly aren't. It is very hard to find the facts - they don't do a good job of self-reporting. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted September 1, 2011 Report Posted September 1, 2011 It is very hard to find the facts - they don't do a good job of self-reporting. In many cases, that's true....so I refer to the second part of my post that you were responding to. Quote
Bryan Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Why even bring it up ? I was on a podcast with someone who defended the Canadian system, and I asked her why. I then counted in my head how long it took her to bring up the U.S. system and it took less than 30 seconds. It's weird. We compare our system to the American one because it's the one we are most familiar with. It's the only other system that is right next door. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) We compare our system to the American one because it's the one we are most familiar with. It's the only other system that is right next door. It's also the "foreign" system Canadians use the most...from hospitals, to providers, to R&D, to pharma...to medical technology. Even Canada's blood products come from...America. Edited September 4, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) It's also the "foreign" system Canadians use the most...from hospitals, to providers, to R&D, to pharma...to medical technology. Even Canada's blood products come from...America. Your trolling is becoming more blatant and repetitive... Edited September 4, 2011 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 Your trolling is becoming more blatant and repetitive... That's the idea...especially for "Yank" haters like you. If you don't like it, ignore my posts. But you can't ignore America...in fact...your economy is very dependent on it. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
William Ashley Posted September 4, 2011 Report Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) That's the idea...especially for "Yank" haters like you. If you don't like it, ignore my posts. But you can't ignore America...in fact...your economy is very dependent on it. Canada could trade with Gadaffi and Syria, no one else seems to be.. Edited September 4, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
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