wyly Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) "Any opinions? Is the school system failing children? Is it the kids and their parents who should be the ones responsible for dealing with this "problem"? Is it a non-issue, since it's only a tiny percentage of kids, who probably won't grow up to be robbers and rapists anyway?" My brother was gifted and landed up on the wrong side of the law. My son was gifted and lined up on the right side of the law and has parlayed that into a sucessful medical practice. So in answer to your question no the school system isn't failing children. The onus is on the parents, the student and the teachers to ensure sucess. agree on that, where you find successful kids you'll find supportive encouraging parents...if the parents don't give a crap then it's a toss of dice how their kids turn out, my bro's kids range from petty criminals to multi-millionaires... it matters to kids what their parents think they crave their approval...my youngest shows great promise as a musician but he'd rather play Xbox, he practices guitar daily only because he knows I love to hear him play... Edited August 2, 2011 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Some time ago, a friend of mine at the time had a brother about 10 years younger than him. This kid was totally disinterested in school and had mediocre grades. Meanwhile, at home, he was reading Shakespeare, composing music and playing it on multiple instruments, and learning calculus. He was in grade 4. Of these four things, the elementary school system can only be held responsible for not teaching Shakespeare or Calculus, and I have my doubts about Shakespeare (it is called a library). Edited August 2, 2011 by Remiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Okay...gifted kids grow up to be greedy, self centred psychpaths. That seems to be what you're saying! Please stay away from any gifted children. If that's what a kid might sense you think of him you'd likely screw his head up for life! A kid can't help being born smart, you know. If he was gay you would support him. Because he's smart you expect him to grow up to be a greedy psychopath! Geez! We desperately need that "B" Ark! No no no! You are extrapolating it to the nth level of absurdity! You been smokin that loco-weed today, old boy? Anyway, my view is that being smart isn't everything. Smart is not as important as being human. Or specifically, humane Impressive though, how many members of this forum are "gifted"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Clearly you have no experience with gifted kids. Gifted kids are most certainly not the ones "interested" in school. Why? Because the material being covered is so utterly simple and boring for them. To get them interested, they need to be exposed to material that is of a more advanced level, often many grade levels higher, or material that is not usually covered in school at all. Some time ago, a friend of mine at the time had a brother about 10 years younger than him. This kid was totally disinterested in school and had mediocre grades. Meanwhile, at home, he was reading Shakespeare, composing music and playing it on multiple instruments, and learning calculus. He was in grade 4. it's you that have minimal experience you're still living with the myth that the gifted are bored, BS!...I've 25 yrs working with other people's kids I know talent when I see it...then there are my immediate family members who led ordinary lives despite being labeled as gifted, they didn't give a rats ass about calculus and Shakespeare which they considered boring, they were perfectly happy with the normal school curriculum and living normal teenage lives...but that never prevented them from being becoming leaders in their chosen careers, engineering, finance/law and medicine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 it's you that have minimal experience you're still living with the myth that the gifted are bored, BS!.. I've 25 yrs working with other people's kids I know talent when I see it... Ha. I have direct personal experience being gifted and bored to hell in normal school classes. What is this 25 years of experience you have? Are you a teacher? If so, based on your posts here, I can only sincerely hope no kid of mine ever ends up in one of your classes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Of these four things, the elementary school system can only be held responsible for not teaching Shakespeare or Calculus, and I have my doubts about Shakespeare. which all subjective, because a kid has an interest in something that others don't does not make them any more special than others...when did an interest in calculus and Shakespeare become the standard of "gifted" that's very elitist...if a kid shows interest in auto mechanics at an early age does that make less gifted than another that likes calculus?...of if the kid has no specialized interest at all, that doesn't indicate the kid isn't gifted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 which all subjective, because a kid has an interest in something that others don't does not make them any more special than others...when did an interest in calculus and Shakespeare become the standard of "gifted" that's very elitist...if a kid shows interest in auto mechanics at an early age does that make less gifted than another that likes calculus?...of if the kid has no specialized interest at all, that doesn't indicate the kid isn't gifted... If a kid in grade 4 could rebuild a car better than a high school student who took a lot of shop classes, then yes, I would venture a guess that they were mechanically gifted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) All these brilliant people on MapleLeafForum: And so I spent one afternoon a week at a different school, with other kids who were apparently also really good at squiggly lines and shapes. I was the only kid from my school... I went through the same thing as a child. I got identified as a gifted kid in grade 4 and went to some of these special programs 1 day a week also.... I have a couple of kids that were identified as 'gifted' and one who would have been through sheer hard work.My daughter was sailing along into high school... I bought this ticket and took this ride too. They put me in a 'free' school.My experience sounded more like kimmy's brother.... Believe me, I am not an outsider in this debate. I trace the ruination of whatever work ethic I may have had to a realization when I was very young that there seemed to be no particularly benefit to being thirty of fifty pages ahead of the next most adept person in the math textbook we were told to work through... ... and identified as brilliant by bureaucratics who want to perpetuate their system. ---- The Soviet system had a similar system to identify youngsters for some natural talent: gymnast, ballet, hockey, football, chess, mathematics, language. Elementary teachers were shown what to look for in a child and then experts came to assess their suggestions. The system "sort of worked" until parents understood that if a child was recognized as good/had potential at languages, for example, the child went to a better school. Then in the 1970s, the Soviet school system started to show its signs of decriptude. --- Is our North American school system sustainable? Hardner has posted OECD studies showing that Canada's system is in the top 5 or so. The US does not rate so well. IMHO, if we are to have a State school system, then I think that it should imitate as much as possible what a private school system would look like. IOW, there should be special schools for smart kids, dumb kids, loud kids, quiet/shy kids, jumpy kids. There should be schools for kids who have parents who want them to mix with all kinds of other kids. There should be schools for kids who speak French, and schools for kids who speak English. Unfortunately, State school systems are open to parental gaming. If parents learn that going to a specific school helps their kid, then parents will lobby to get their kid into that school, receive that special treatment. Fortunately, the school system has limited demand (unlike our health system). ---- Getting back to Kimmy's OP, how should we teach "gifted" kids? Here's my take: I have always been amazed how quickly young kids learn how to text on a dial pad. (It takes skill, and knowledge.) I am also amazed at how teenage girls can identify shoe styles, and car brands. I'm also amazed at how teenage boys can argue about what games are lame. IOW, people learn quickly what matters to them. Life would not exist on this planet if we were slow learners. I frankly think that most of us are excellent (gifted) students but lousy teachers. Edited August 2, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 it's you that have minimal experience you're still living with the myth that the gifted are bored, BS!...I've 25 yrs working with other people's kids I know talent when I see it... Jim Carrey! He was recognized young. And so were many other young kids who made noise in class - but now have settled down.Albert Einstein? He was not recognized, and I don't think our current North American bureaucratic education system would recognize him either. I wonder even whether it should recognize someone like him. Rather, I think that "smart" people like Einstein, Leibnitz, Euler, Newton, Coase and Keynes should simply receive a good, basic education and then ponder why some things are obviously wrong. Dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) If a kid in grade 4 could rebuild a car better than a high school student who took a lot of shop classes, then yes, I would venture a guess that they were mechanically gifted. or just early starters...I where I grew up it wasn't unusual for farm kids to repairing vehicles with their dad's and driving by age 12, it doesn't indicate they were gifted, it doesn't indicate they aren't...so a kid showing an interest in calculus at an early age should not be taken as an guaranteed indicator of anything other than a early interest... there have been many "gifted" kids who amounted to nothing... Edited August 2, 2011 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Hardner has posted OECD studies showing that Canada's system is in the top 5 or so. The US does not rate so well. Where did he post these studies? I'd be interested in taking a look at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Where did he post these studies? I'd be interested in taking a look at them. Try this link. Ha, ha. Just kidding! Start here: World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Try this link.{/quote] Ha, ha. Just kidding! Haha, but I already tried Google, and it didn't tell me where Hardner posted the studies that August referred to. Imagine that. Start here:World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? Thank you, but I'm interested in taking a look at the studies Harder posted. Perhaps it's just a list of the results same as you posted, but I'm actually interested in reading more about the studies themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Try this link. Ha, ha. Just kidding! Start here: World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? so if we were to take that ranking at face value South Koreans and Fins have more gifted kids than we do and Canada has more than Japan...but we all know that's ridiculous, it's culture driven...cultures where education is of primary value there is more parental support and encouragement... Edited August 2, 2011 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Haha, but I already tried Google, and it didn't tell me where Hardner posted the studies that August referred to. Imagine that. My mistake, I thought any OECD study would do. I found a bunch when I did a Google search, I just thought you would want the condensed version. Thank you, but I'm interested in taking a look at the studies Harder posted. Perhaps it's just a list of the results same as you posted, but I'm actually interested in reading more about the studies themselves. Do they have to be specifically Hardner endorsed OECD studies or would the canon of OECD education data, located here do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 so if we were to take that ranking at face value South Koreans and Fins have more gifted kids than we do and Canada has more than Japan...but we all know that's ridiculous, it's culture driven...cultures where education is of primary value there is more parental support and encouragement... Country wide averages has nothing to do with gifted learners. Gifted learners are a tiny minority in any country, and they hardly impact these averages at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Thank you, but I'm interested in taking a look at the studies Harder posted. Perhaps it's just a list of the results same as you posted, but I'm actually interested in reading more about the studies themselves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugz_1ClpsdkThis video explains the tests and includes some commentary on streaming. Edited August 2, 2011 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Country wide averages has nothing to do with gifted learners.True. The OECD statistics are simply a rigorous attempt of bureaucrats to measure a bureaucratic education system. It is like asking engineers which bridge in Alaska is "better", or less likely to collapse. (Given recent history in Quebec, maybe my analogy is not so appropriate.)---- Bonam, how would you measure "gifted learners"? Edited August 2, 2011 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately, my membership in Mensa prohibits me from bragging.... Edited August 4, 2011 by Charles Anthony deleted re-copied previous post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) Bonam, how would you measure "gifted learners"? There are existing psychological tests to identify gifted learners. From what I remember, the test measures innate pattern recognition, logic, spatial perception, memory, and abstract lingual skills. Those that are sufficiently above the average in some or all of these areas are classified as gifted. These tests seem adequate, not perfect I'm sure, but neither is anything else. Edited August 3, 2011 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Whoda thunk it! Everyone in this place figures theyre gifted! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Whoda thunk it! Everyone in this place figures theyre gifted! :lol: Of course. Anyone who is not utterly turned off by politics must be gifted with a high tolerance for bullshit, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Whoda thunk it! Everyone in this place figures theyre gifted! :lol: yup...everyone wants to claim they or their kids are "gifted"...very few truely are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) yup...everyone wants to claim they or their kids are "gifted"...very few truely are... BS again. Many parents, just like many teachers, don't know anything at all about the whole concept of gifted kids. And most kids certainly have no notion of it. Edited August 3, 2011 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Everyone is gifted in their own special way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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