Here we go again - Quebec Independence

[maplesyrup]

Separatists' dream is alive

Gilles Duceppe's joyous Bloc Québécois supporters were chanting On veut gagner! — We want to win — on election night, and Duceppe tried to cut them off, saying, "We did win!"

They were both right.

Duceppe had reason to feel he won a big victory on Monday. He matched Lucien Bouchard's total in 1993 by leading the Bloc Québécois to 54 seats. He rolled back the steady gains that the Liberals had made over the next decade. He won 48.8 per cent of the vote in Quebec, and the 1,672,184 votes the Bloc won will generate $2.9 million a year for the party.

But his supporters had a point. They have good reason to think that the dream that seemed threatened with extinction only a few months ago is now alive and thriving. This is only the beginning of a process that they hope will result in a successful referendum, and Quebec independence.

Those 54 members will have riding offices, assistants and research staffs, all dedicated to the proposition that Quebec should be an independent country.

I realize this is a Quebec issue, but does anyone think Canadians can approach things differently this time ?

I am beginning to get a little anxious not because of Quebeckers necessarily, but of the Quebec federalist leadership and the ROC's approach to this issue.

Duceppe, as Quebec premier is going to be a formidable opponent.

The federal Liberals must be rubbing their hands with glee - another issue to put the fear into the hearts of Canadians and give the federal Liberals another majority government.

Claude Charest is going to save Canada - God, or whatever, if God's not your thing, help us.

[takeanumber]

I've come to believe that Canada without Quebec will be rought.

It could be a messy divorce. (Especially with Quebec Cabinet ministers on the Canadian side of the table).

But I also believe that if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec.

I think though, in the end, it'll allow the Rest of Canada to move on with their dreams and become, finally, a sovereign people.

It'll also be nice to not have a gun pointed at your head all the time, and it would pave the way for a better electoral system.

Ontario and Alberta will be sending their transfer payments to other provinces, instead of sending a large portion to rural Quebec.

I seriously don't know how Quebec will support all of their seasonal workers and welfare people. But, they'll no doubt try to extort some sort of transfer payment, which simply won't work.

So yeh. Other countries are divided geographically, like Malaysia (Sarawak and Sabah), Russia (Kaliningrad), Amernia (that exclave in Azerbajan I think, and Azerbajan has a enclave in the other), and France (A number of regions are considered departments of France, like New Caledonia), and finally, the United States (Alaska, Hawaii), so really:

it's a big deal.

But it's not fatal.

The Rest of Canada, and Canada itself, lives on, if not stronger, after Quebec leaves.

[maplesyrup]

I just do not understand anyone who can think such a thing. We are such a rich country in so many ways, which has a lot to do with Quebec. Let's celebrate our French culture, not attack it.

Let's look for solutions so that Quebeckers are at home across our big country, not create more problems.

Canadians need to get back to their dreams.

First of all, Canada needs to become truly bilingual - what's the big deal anyways?

[playfullfellow]

Let's look for solutions so that Quebeckers are at home across our big country, not create more problems

Good idea MS but it won't work. What do you think the ROC has been doing for the last 30 or so years? We have done nothing but coddle and suck up to Quebec and they have been taking it all with a big ass smile on their faces. How many billions of dollars has been sent to Quebec to keep them quiet?

First of all, Canada needs to become truly bilingual - what's the big deal anyways? 

This is a two way street, Quebec will have to make the first move and get rid of some of their archaic rules concerning french and english. Why should I have to know french? I am already bilingual. English is my second language (as may be noticed once in while by some of my spelling mistakes ) and I take pride that I still speak a second language. Other countries are given a choice of which languages they want to learn. Canada is just too big a country to force to be bilinigual. Look at the differences in the english we speak. A newfie (this is not an insult, I have many newfie friends and family) speak a totally different english than someone from BC. Let's celebrate what makes us unique and not try to force everyone to be the same. And it is time to stop sucking up to Quebec, we have other problems in this nation that have to be addressed first and foremost.

[Cartman]

In Alberta it is almost impossible to get into FSL programs because they are in such high demand. In general, the number of young people involved in exchange programs is staggering demonstrating not only tolerance for differences, but an interest in understanding them. I think that it is fair to say that the lack of respect is towards the PQ/BQ specifically. How many times must there be a sep. vote until the question is ultimately resolved? And, lest we forget Parizeau's comments on the reasons for losing the last vote: "money and the ethnic vote". A real multiculturalist. Also, I thought that the BQ claimed they would only run in a couple of elections and be gone by now. Promises, promises.

[takeanumber]

If a clear majority, on a clear question, wishes to leave confederation, then they can.

If massive portions of Montreal wants to stay in Canada, then they can stay in Canada.

Seriously, if life in Canada is such a terrible hardship for rural Quebecois, then they have the right to leave confederation.

What is the Rest of Canada scared of? It'll be a messy divorce, but in the long run, it'll be best for us.

We can go on to build a truly multicultural country instead of a semi-multicultural country. A truly multicultural country doesn't allow a single province to oppress it's anglophone minority.

So for sure. The Province of Montreal. It has a nice ring to it.

[maplesyrup]

takeanumber....I presume you would have preferred voters to vote for something they believe in, not vote out of fear, during our recent last election, right?

Well, my preference is to have Quebeckers remain with us because they want to, not stay out of fear that Quebec will be dismantled.

I don't have the answers, just thoughts, and more questions.

[caesar]

Ontario and Alberta will be sending their transfer payments to other provinces, instead of sending a large portion to rural Quebec.

No; from the sounds of it; Alberta would be crying to separate, too. Which we could not allow as they don't want to pay the costs for a clean environment and may

pollute Canada if left on their own. Alberta, without BC would be landlocked.

[Sully]

Well I really think that if Quebec wants to separate go ahead. I really do not think they have thought this one through. Right now Quebec has far greater protection within Canada, but once they separate, that insulated layer of protection will evaporate. I have a hard time believing that the several million Quebecers and their culture will be better off when they are surrounded by over 300 million predominantly English speakers. There will be no need for english Canadians to cater to them anymore, nor will the Americans cater to their needs.

I believe the Quebec market in many cases is too small to warrant major investment from multinationals. Hell if I headed a company they better loosen their laws as far as language and such, before I open shop within their borders. Too many costs to do business in Quebec. Quebec will suffer much more on its own.

[Bro]

Here is the simple solution.

Tell Quebec what they are getting from the ROC,tell them to compare it to what the other provinces receive.

If they still feel that their higher percentage of federal money is not enough,then maybe a trial separation is in order,without the attached purse strings the Bloc think should be attaahed to the ROC if they leave.

[August1991]

Quebec independance is not strictly a question of money. Most people who favour independance have not made a profit/loss calculation, and indeed they have no desire to make one.

In western Canada, it seems common to think that Quebec independance is a bluff to extort money from the federal government. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact of the matter is that the question of Quebec independance will not go away.

The Charest government is unpopular now and it appears it may be a one-term government. (It has three years to go so alot can change.) With the PQ, there will be another referendum.

Two last points: By choosing Lapierre, PM PM implicitly rejected the Trudeau-style of federalism. Watch carefully for the cabinet portfolios given to Dion and Lapierre (if Dion gets one).

Second, it was painfully obvious to everyone in Quebec that no one in the federal government was capable of confronting Duceppe in the past election.

[takeanumber]

I think money is a huge part of it.

First off, if you listen to Duceppe and the seperatists, they argue that Quebec is always short changed when it comes to money.

They don't believe that they are a net beneficiary from confederation.

I think that in part, there's the question of money, in that they always want to extort more of from the ROC, a bribe to stay in Canada.

Second off, the treatment of Anglophones within Quebec is simply illiberal. There's no law, anywhere else in the country, that states that you can't have a store front sign in another language. It's simply illiberal, and there isn't a legitimate reason for it.

Third, if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. Carving out the Province of Montreal and a new Northern Territory, and then allowing the 'real' Quebecois nation to move on, would be good.

I think that the rest of Canada has evolved to the point in its history that we don't need Quebec holding a gun to our heads.

If life in Canada is so terrible for them, let them have a vote, and we'll divie up the province into pieces.

[August1991]

I think that in part, there's the question of money, in that they always want to extort more of from the ROC, a bribe to stay in Canada.

It is the federalists in Quebec, the Jean Chretiens and the Denis Coderres, who are doing this. They were the ones who bought all those flags.

Second off, the treatment of Anglophones within Quebec is simply illiberal. There's no law, anywhere else in the country, that states that you can't have a store front sign in another language. It's simply illiberal, and there isn't a legitimate reason for it.

Find me an ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, that is as well treated as the Anglophones of Quebec.

Third, if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. Carving out the Province of Montreal and a new Northern Territory, and then allowing the 'real' Quebecois nation to move on, would be good.

Is your point worth going to war over? The people currently living on Quebec territory are perfectly aware of what that means. It would not be practical to divide the island of Montreal. The people of Quebec have extremely strong feelings about this.

-----

I think you are viewing this too dramatically. This situation will be resolved in typical Canadian fashion. It will be boring. Quebec will obtain autonomy within Canada. This would be ideal for everyone.

[takeanumber]

Find me an ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, that is as well treated as the Anglophones of Quebec.

Acadians.

Walloons.

Scottish.

Welsh.

Tamils (in india).

I just named five.

Your move.

[playfullfellow]

No; from the sounds of it; Alberta would be crying to separate, too. Which we could not allow as they don't want to pay the costs for a clean environment and may

Ummmmm, correction, Alberta already has pretty high standards against polution. We can do more of course but the ball has started rolling. You could also say that Alberta has already paid for it's share of the pollution problem through the NEP of the 80's. Consider it an advance payment. And you know caesar, the air in Alberta is a heck of a lot better than the air of the lower mainland, Okanagan or the Kootenays. You can't even see 1 mile anymore on a calm day on the lower mainland . What about all the crud that washes up on the beach at White Rock? Kids can't even go barefoot down there anymore. Clean your own outhouse before you start complaining about your neighbours please.

[Cartman]

Why do we jump around the issue here? The PQ wants to institute "ethnic citizenship" rather than "civil citizenship". Again, remember when Parizeau said that 60% of Quebec voted to leave? I wonder why he said 60% when they did not even get 50%. People in Quebec should remember these racist sentiments before voting for them again!!!

I can see what resource-rich Alberta or BC would gain by leaving Canada, but I seriously fail to see what Quebec would gain. Alberta wants greater control over resources. What does the PQ/BQ want? I think it is partly about extortion and a perverted sense of nation-building that includes only franco-phones. I believe that Quebec is the only place in the world with such shameful restrictions on signs. The BQ/PQ does not represent all people in Quebec...thankfully.

[August1991]

Acadians.

In Canada, or NB. Well they used to be in NS but then... And how long have they had their language rights respected? What's the rate of assimilation even now?

Tamils (in india).

They have their own state in a country without a majority. And you're going to go far in the Indian world if you only speak Tamil.

Welsh.

For all intents, assimilated.

Walloons.

This one I might agree with except it would be tough to say the Flemish form a majority. Belgium is rather two scorpions eyeing each other in a bottle.

Scottish.

Hmmm. Does French Quebec treat Anglos as well as the English treat the Scottish? There has always been an Anglo in the Quebec Cabinet. Has there always been a Scot in London?

Who is more resentful, a Scot or an English Montrealer? I'd go with the Scot.

[Cartman]

I am not going to defend the ways in which the English have behaved in the past, particularly in other countries. My father was French-Canadian and never taught us French because of racism in Ontario. How sad. But NOW we live in a truly multicultural nation and whether Quebec is part of Canada or not, there will always be a measure of cultural homogenization and assimilation taking place. Globalization, which includes cultural homogenization, is here to stay.

[August1991]

I can see what resource-rich Alberta or BC would gain by leaving Canada, but I seriously fail to see what Quebec would gain.

By that logic, Canada should join the United States and we'd all be richer.

I believe that Quebec is the only place in the world with such shameful restrictions on signs.

And Canada is one of those silly places in the world that force radio and TV stations to play "Canadian" content.

Why do we jump around the issue here? The PQ wants to institute "ethnic citizenship" rather than "civil citizenship".

WTF?

[Cartman]

Civil citizenship includes providing rights to all people living in an area whereas ethnic citizenship is based upon ethnicity.

[takeanumber]

Acadians.

In Canada, or NB. Well they used to be in NS but then... And how long have they had their language rights respected? What's the rate of assimilation even now?

Acadians are sure as hell treated a lot better than Anglophones in Quebec.

The homeland of the Acadians is New Brunswick, where they have entrenched constitutional rights that CANNOT be overriden by S. 33.

Anglophones in Quebec frequently have their rights overriden.

So, yeh, I'd say Acadians have it much better than Anglos.

If Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec.

I like the idea of a province of Montreal and a territory of Ungava.

I also think that a strong offense is the best defense.

Perhaps they should have a referendum in Montreal to determine sucession from Quebec.

Clear majority on a clear question.

[Cartman]

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport...cle.jsp?aid=175

Civic vs. Ethnic Nation

As Paul Hockenos points out in his Free to Hate, a book about neofascism in Eastern Europe, there are two competing concepts of the nation — the civic and the ethnic. The civic, rooted in the democratic values of the French Revolution, refers to all those who live within the borders of a nation-state, with citizens afforded equal protection under a set of laws.

"The ethnic nation, on the other hand, is a folkish community," Hockenos writes, "bound not by a common legal code or state borders, but by descent, language, customs and history" — a family, that is, of blood.

[takeanumber]

Sounds like a renewed excuse for European xenophobia and neo-fascism.

Oh well. The Europeans need a war every 50 years, it seems.

I hope they keep it to themselves this time.

[maplesyrup]

Why do we jump around the issue here? The PQ wants to institute "ethnic citizenship" rather than "civil citizenship". Again, remember when Parizeau said that 60% of Quebec voted to leave? I wonder why he said 60% when they did not even get 50%. People in Quebec should remember these racist sentiments before voting for them again!!!

I can see what resource-rich Alberta or BC would gain by leaving Canada, but I seriously fail to see what Quebec would gain. Alberta wants greater control over resources. What does the PQ/BQ want? I think it is partly about extortion and a perverted sense of nation-building that includes only franco-phones. I believe that Quebec is the only place in the world with such shameful restrictions on signs. The BQ/PQ does not represent all people in Quebec...thankfully.

Actually I think there is a restriction on French signs in British Columbia. I never see any, not even on the Trans Canada Highway that runs through the Lower Mainland.

How come?

Is this discrimination?

You bet it is?

I have seen some Chinese street signs in East Vancouver, which are cool.

Anglos in Quebec have it good compared to French rights in the rest of the country.

[August1991]

there are two competing concepts of the nation — the civic and the ethnic.

There are all kinds of ways to define membership in a club.

Any Jew in the world can become a citizen of Israel. Anyone of German background can claim citizenship in Germany. Anyone born anywhere to at least one Canadian parent can be a Canadian citizen.

I have never heard anyone suggest that Quebec citizens be anything other than those resident on the territory of Quebec. At present, the typical determination is who is entitled to provincial health insurance.

Anglos in Quebec have it good compared to French rights in the rest of the country.

Thank you, MS. However one feels about Canada or Quebec, there is something called objective truth.