What's wrong with Support our Troops stickers on government vehicl

[Oleg Bach]

No it doesn’t. Proceeds from CANEX go towards general revenue for the most part, with some funds being made available to the local base/wing commander for “discretionary spending” for such militarising items such as the local Cub scouts/Brownies troop, kids hockey/baseball and “welcome home parties” for service members....

If the forces were allowed to raise funds for additional weapons outside the procurement budget, you’d likely see serving members putting on car washes, bottle drives and bake sales on the weekends...

Those on the other side of the “political spectrum”, signed on to the Afghanistan mission, then expanded the war fighting role…..Not too mention the Liberal’s and NDP both supported the Libyan mission….

Are you opposed to wearing poppies on Remembrance Day?

Liberals and the NDP support that idea of protecting woman and the idea of "a little girl going to school" AND they are willing to travel great distances in order to kill the "abusive males" - what the heck - they drive men into the ground and slowling kill them in our domestic family law courts - they have simply gone international.

[Guest Derek L]

It's just too damned sappy for the pagan ethos invading other countries requires. It's obviously some idea the establishment has invented or hijacked to cloak it's naked empire in a warm fuzzy blanket of family-like values. It's a little nauseating actually.

I still don’t see your connection……Support the troops seems pretty clear cut…

Nope. Canadians should vote in referendums requiring super-majorities before we send soldiers outside our borders.

I don’t agree with a referendum, we already elect members to Parliament…….That said, for purely political reasons, I’d like to see a requirement of 50% + 1 members of Parliament to vote in favour of sending troops overseas……..This way, in all likelihood, no one party would wear such a mission, as would the likelihood decrease of politics being played with it……..Perhaps even a wartime cabinet, ala, Churchill’s government during the WW II……..

[Sir Bandelot]

I still don’t see your connection……Support the troops seems pretty clear cut…

Support the troops is not clear cut. It's an open statement. Support them in what?

Make me a bumper sticker says, "Support the troops... NOT THE WAR!" and I'll consider it.

[Guest Derek L]

The "troops and their families" are not a monolithic group. And I didnt say people should not express their appreciation for what members of the armed forces do - I would just rather public property and money was not used for this purpose.

I’m sure there are some troops & families that don’t support…..the umm…troops, but they’re likely in a small minority………..Are you opposed to government workers wearing poppies? What about ribbons in support of AIDS/Cancer research?

[Sir Bandelot]

But even so... do I really support people who are willing to mindlessly follow orders given them by some wealthy minister? No, not really. I support the persons, but not the idea.

[Guest Derek L]

Support the troops is not clear cut. It's an open statement. Support them in what?

Make me a bumper sticker says, "Support the troops... NOT THE WAR!" and I'll consider it.

Support them in the hardships they and their families undertake with deployment………..Are you opposed to the wearing of poppies also? One could say the wearing of a flower from a major battlefield is even more of a “open statement”…

[Peter F]

Does not wearing the ribbon mean not supporting the troops?

[Sir Bandelot]

Support them in the hardships they and their families undertake with deployment………

That is not implicit in 'support the trooops'.

However:

SB -> "I support the persons..."

..Are you opposed to the wearing of poppies also? One could say the wearing of a flower from a major battlefield is even more of a “open statement”…

I understand what a THREAT means. Sometimes it's impossible to ignore a threat, and it has to be dealt with. Havng said that, I would not compare WWII with Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Guest Derek L]

Does not wearing the ribbon mean not supporting the troops?

I wouldn’t say that, more likely, it shows indifference towards them.

[Guest Derek L]

That is not implicit in 'support the trooops'.

However:

SB -> "I support the persons..."

Just as supporting the troops does not mean one necessarily supports the mission...

I understand what a THREAT means. Sometimes it's impossible to ignore a threat, and it has to be dealt with. Havng said that, I would not compare WWII with Iraq or Afghanistan.

In your opinion, how does the war in Afghanistan differ from WW II (or WW I / Korea) for that mater?

How was Osama bin Laden less a threat to us directly and/or indirectly, then say the Kaiser, Hitler or Kim Il-sung?

In my view, OBL was more of a threat to Canada than the Kaiser and the North Koreans.....

[Sir Bandelot]

How was Osama bin Laden less a threat to us directly and/or indirectly, then say the Kaiser, Hitler or Kim Il-sung?

Oh come on, 19 Arabs with box cutters does in no way compare to the nazis who had 100's of thousands of well trained armed troops, tanks, sophisticated aircraft, naval vessels, invaded great swaths of land and killed millions.

What does getting OBL have to do with invading the whole of Afghanistan? Those people never threaten us.

[Guest Derek L]

Oh come on, 19 Arabs with box cutters does in no way compare to the nazis who had 100's of thousands of well trained armed troops, tanks, sophisticated aircraft, naval vessels, invaded great swaths of land and killed millions.

What does getting OBL have to do with invading the whole of Afghanistan? Those people never threaten us.

How many Canadian (and Americans) civilians died on North American soil from the hands of the Nazis? Or from the North Koreans or the Deutsche Reich?

19 Arabs managed ~2700 with just box cutters……..How many did these other regimes with “thousands of well trained armed troops, tanks, sophisticated aircraft, naval vessels” kill in North America?

As for the invasion of Afghanistan proper, I’d say the ruling Tailban allowing him to operate within their boarders had something to do with it…..

[eyeball]

I still don’t see your connection……Support the troops seems pretty clear cut…

That so many are so personally gung-ho about something I'm so viscerally opposed to probably has something to do with it.

I REALLY don't support the mission okay? I really think anyone who goes out of their way to be involved to the point of volunteering for this disastrous fiasco is wrong in the head.

If Canadian soldiers were being conscripted I would have a Support Our Troops sticker on my bumper but it would be within the context of slagging our government and it's sycophants and be a preface to something like Bring Them Home or Send The Sycophants instead.

[Guest Derek L]

That so many are so personally gung-ho about something I'm so viscerally opposed to probably has something to do with it.

I REALLY don't support the mission okay? I really think anyone who goes out of their way to be involved to the point of volunteering for this disastrous fiasco is wrong in the head.

That’s your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it, in fact, there’s people that volunteer to protect your right to insult them, and by proxy, their families……Do you share the same opinion of police officers? Fire fighters and paramedics?

With that said, you’ve yet to explain how supporting the troops is the same as supporting the mission……

[Oleg Bach]

After Viet Nam - I as a long haired kid like to hitch hike across Canada and down into the states..Made the trip from Toronto to El Paso a few times...What I did see on the road were a lot of Viet Nam vets...most were deeply injured mentally and no one was taking care of them - I wonder how our soldiers will fair in these regards...It is not just the dead ones that we should support in memorium - but the maimed - the emotionally crippled and the deeply injured and insane - we don't even have numbers on them that are public - all we have are the body count of the perished.

[Guest Derek L]

After Viet Nam - I as a long haired kid like to hitch hike across Canada and down into the states..Made the trip from Toronto to El Paso a few times...What I did see on the road were a lot of Viet Nam vets...most were deeply injured mentally and no one was taking care of them - I wonder how our soldiers will fair in these regards...It is not just the dead ones that we should support in memorium - but the maimed - the emotionally crippled and the deeply injured and insane - we don't even have numbers on them that are public - all we have are the body count of the perished.

I think Eyeball’s point is that since the members of our forces are all volunteers (as they’ve been for the most part in all our wars) and not draftees like the majority of Americans that served in Vietnam, they are not worthy of the general publics support.......

[bush_cheney2004]

.....and not draftees like the majority of Americans that served in Vietnam, they are not worthy of the general publics support.......

Point of order....the majority of Americans that served in the Vietnam War were not draftees. It was about 25% of in country forces. Contrast this with WW2 where 65% of American forces were drafted.

[Remiel]

Is this discussion happening again, seriously? Can we not just accept that it died years ago?

[Guest American Woman]

So very well said. Thank you.

You're welcome. I can't understand why people cannot differentiate between the troops - the people who join the military to serve Canada - and the war. They deserve our support, and to anyone who is serving/has served, I say 'thank you.' You have my support - may you be safe and know that people back home appreciate your service.

That the government of the very nation they are serving should be prohibited from expressing their support is something I just don't understand.

[Guest Derek L]

Point of order....the majority of Americans that served in the Vietnam War were not draftees. It was about 25% of in country forces. Contrast this with WW2 where 65% of American forces were drafted.

That’s interesting....I do wonder though, of all the Americans that “served”, what’s the breakdown of draftees by service? Sure a lot of Americans “served in Vietnam” with the Gulf of Tonkin yacht club or on airbases in Thailand and the Philippines……Unlike WW II, the USN wasn’t rapidly expanded for the Vietnam war………Whats was the percentage of draftees in the various infantry/airborne/Cav divisions compared to say an aircraft carrier?

[Peter F]

I wouldn’t say that, more likely, it shows indifference towards them.

So not wearing the yellow ribbon doesn't really indicate anything does it.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Whats was the percentage of draftees in the various infantry/airborne/Cav divisions compared to say an aircraft carrier?

Good question, but it still wouldn't change the fact that the majority of ground pounders were not draftees. One could argue that conscription drove those with low draft numbers to volunteer in other services to avoid the Army or Marine Corps, but that is somewhat offset by other non-combatant tours around the world. Draftees represented about 31% of KIAs in the Vietnam War, so their numbers were higher in those units....don't know exactly how much higher.

The Canadians that served certainly were not a majority of conscripts!

Edited July 31, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

So not wearing the yellow ribbon doesn't really indicate anything does it.

Didn't I answer that, in my previous post, that you quoted above? Whats your point?

[Guest Derek L]

Good question, but it still wouldn't change the fact that the majority of ground pounders were not draftees. One could argue that conscription drove those with low draft numbers to volunteer in other services to avoid the Army or Marine Corps, but that is somewhat offset by other non-combatant tours around the world. Draftees represented about 31% of KIAs in the Vietnam War, so their numbers were higher in those units....don't know exactly how much higher.

The Canadians that served certainly were not a majority of conscripts!

I would still find a further breakdown interesting……..5 weeks training at Fort Dix or Parris Island was all that was provided for infantry……. If only 31% KIA were drafted, a further breakdown could show with what service……The USMC, only drafted ~45-50K members, but with the Marines policy on rotation, their deployment in the North, and their number of KIA (14k+), from what was for the most part a volunteer force & considerably smaller than the Army, would skew the numbers for the overall 31% KIA

For the record, I’m not trying to disparage Vietnam Vets, regardless of being volunteers or draftees.

[Wilber]

Seems to me that it is folks like the Council of Canadians who are trying to make it political. Putting such a sticker on a vehicle of mine would have nothing to do with my politics or whether I support a war. Our military personnel do what the country asks them to do regardless of their own opinions. That should be acknowledged by all citizens regardless of their politics.