Peter F Posted July 27, 2011 Report Posted July 27, 2011 I've stated specifically that I've only read through parts of the manifesto. The political elements that I've come across in the manifesto, specifically the first hundred-ish pages, I agree with. well you do have ninehundred-odd pages to go. Hopefully your agreement will fade away. I know that if my political beleifs led me to conclude that its necessary that a bunch of folks need killin somewhere, I would think my political beliefs are seriously fuckedup somewhere! Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
August1991 Posted July 27, 2011 Report Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Is that such an outrageous idea?If the Earth Liberation Front kills someone during one of their arson attacks, does that make that the idea of ecological conservancy is inherently wrong? Does it mean that all of the non-violent environmentalists should be lumped in with Earth Liberation Front because they support the same goals? -k Strictly speaking, the Earth Liberation Front doesn't kill anyone. One of their members does. And IMV, anyone who kills in this manner is psychotic. Why? As the kids today say, the ELF member is killing "random" people.Your point is valid though: if a Catholic priest rapes a child, that does not mean that the Catholic Church is wrong. (If the Pope later condones the priest's actions, it's another story.) ---- I think that there is alot of confusion about individual behaviour and group behaviour, and how the two are connected. ---- In the Second World War, from the outset, Hitler aimed to kill civilians. Eventually, Allied/RAF Bomber Command aimed to kill civilians in Germany. Bush Jnr never aimed to kill civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan. I dunno. Is there a difference? Edited July 27, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Scotty Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Oslo police had one helicopter crew and the entire crew was on vacation. This is a shameful failure on the part of the police and they deserve a lot of the blame for the high death toll. Emergency services should never be left unmanned because of vacation time for members. He DROVE there in half an hour. How is it the Oslo police couldn't get there in less than an hour? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Sharing the blame? I would say they shared the blame if they took turns shooting people. But they didn't. only one person shot people. Ergo that person carries full responsibility for the shootings. It isnt the cops fault that the shooter shot people. Suppose you own a warehouse, and you hire a security guard to watch over it at night. But the security guard instead goes up the street to a bar for the night. If the warehouse is looted while he's away, do you hold him blameless, and say it is merely the thieves who were at fault? Or do you fire him? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Im sure if we dug into the personalities of various monsters we could find a little common ground with them... Hitler was a sports fan... Im a sports fan.. But this is getting a little creepy. I mean... It doesnt suprise me that a self confessed racist, supremecist and advocate for ethnic cleansing like bob has his lips on this guys arse hole. Odd. I don't see that. What I see are left wing ideologues who are desperate to use this tragedy as a political tool to smear all right wingers as violent extremists. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Well yeah ... but it was just a bunch of Muslim-loving lefties. /sarcasm And Jew haters. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Peter F Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Suppose you own a warehouse, and you hire a security guard to watch over it at night. But the security guard instead goes up the street to a bar for the night. If the warehouse is looted while he's away, do you hold him blameless, and say it is merely the thieves who were at fault? Or do you fire him? Oh I'd probably sack the guy. But should the reason given be because the mans a thief? Or that he is complicit in robbery? Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
jacee Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 And Jew haters. I'm not aware of any suggestion that the victims were any such thing. Quote
eyeball Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 I'm not aware of any suggestion that the victims were any such thing. The victims were killed for being Muslim lovers. Muslim loving makes you a Jew hater by default. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jacee Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 The victims were killed for being Muslim lovers. Muslim loving makes you a Jew hater by default. Ohhh ... got it. Thanks for elucidating that for me. I was not aware of that ... no I'm still confused ... what about Jews who are friends of Muslims or even married to them? Ahhh! They must all be lily-livered lefties! I think I'm getting it. Quote
dre Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Odd. I don't see that. What I see are left wing ideologues who are desperate to use this tragedy as a political tool to smear all right wingers as violent extremists. What I see are left wing ideologues Yup. Thats what you see no matter where you look, on every issue. This has WAY more to do with YOU than any folks on that end of the political spectrum. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bloodyminded Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) Yup. Thats what you see no matter where you look, on every issue. This has WAY more to do with YOU than any folks on that end of the political spectrum. It would appear that large sections of this genius's Manifesto are held to some esteem by certain left-obsessed folks. His ideas are sound, you see, up until the point where he commits the murders. Among his sober theories are an open defense of the "heroes" in Serbia charged and indicted for war crimes (they were only trying to preserve cultural Christianity from the invading Muslims, you see), and his excellent idea that "multiculturalists" and "Marxists" should be executed. And who could disagree with such sober theorizing? Edited July 28, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
ironstone Posted July 30, 2011 Report Posted July 30, 2011 Good CNN article, with some interesting comments at the bottom. Europe's resurgent far right focuses on immigration, multiculturalism Of course we see an inkling of this in our mainstream right wing, the same arguments and complaints. Heck you could probably do a search on this forum and see some of that. But if you did an Google search, would you? Where is the Fraser Institute when you need it? Interestingly enough, even comments about the 'far right' elements of the CPC are enough to get some MLW posters to comment. Are there any of these 'far right' advocates among those CPC elected in the last election and, if so, what percentage of them? Is it long before mere partisanship devolves here into the kind of violence we are now seeing in Europe? Unfortunately,it seems that anyone daring to challenge anything supported by the left(cradle to grave welfare state,unrestricted immigration,generous handouts to special interest groups,etc...)is considered "far right". While I don't agree with much of the foolishness that typically comes from the left,they are most certainly entitled to their opinions.On the other hand,those on the left will not tolerate any opinions that differ from their own. Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
bloodyminded Posted July 30, 2011 Report Posted July 30, 2011 Unfortunately,it seems that anyone daring to challenge anything supported by the left(cradle to grave welfare state,unrestricted immigration,generous handouts to special interest groups,etc...)is considered "far right". While I don't agree with much of the foolishness that typically comes from the left,they are most certainly entitled to their opinions.On the other hand,those on the left will not tolerate any opinions that differ from their own. My impression is that hysteria from the Right about the Left eclipses its equal and opposite by a large measure...including right here on MLW. "The Left," the Left,"...the refrain has become over-familiar and totally banal. As you say, everyone's entitled to his or her opinion. But it would be nice if those most critical of this gargantuan, all-powerful thing they call "the Left," could get a little more serious, concrete, historical, and rational in their arguments. Believe me, I've tried to engage the usual suspects in just this discussion. But no go. the topic is either ignored, not worthy of debate since it's "common sense" that "everybody knows." (Since I and others dispute it, that is by definition untrue.) Or, on the rare occasion when people do take up the topic, they speak only in generalities, and--as you say--will brook no dissent from the Doctrinal view. At any rate, if I were conservative, I might be inclined to wonder why, for example, terrorism has become an almost uniquely right-wing phenomenon. (If one were a Norwegian mass murderer, he'd no doubt blame "the Left" for the Right-wing violence....exactly as some of the Islamist terrorists tend to do.) Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
kimmy Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 At any rate, if I were conservative, I might be inclined to wonder why, for example, terrorism has become an almost uniquely right-wing phenomenon. (If one were a Norwegian mass murderer, he'd no doubt blame "the Left" for the Right-wing violence....exactly as some of the Islamist terrorists tend to do.) As mentioned in the other thread, I think your desire to lump Islamic terror in with "the right" is pretty inane. And deprived of that, where's the rest of this "right wing terror"? In Canada we've had the bank bombing in Ottawa and the bombing of pipe-lines in Alberta and BC. All have been accompanied by political messages and the warning of future attacks if policies do not change; that's the classic definition of terrorism. Anticorporatism and ecoterrorism are left-wing causes, yes? And in return you're going to give me ... what, the Toronto 17? You already know what I think of that. What else? Some abortion clinic bombers (how many of those have we actually had in Canada?) -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Guest Derek L Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 He DROVE there in half an hour. How is it the Oslo police couldn't get there in less than an hour? Well, depending on the gun and how many magazines one has, it’s not unfeasible to unload a few hundred rounds in a couple of minutes....half hour vs an hour is moot. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) He DROVE there in half an hour. How is it the Oslo police couldn't get there in less than an hour? From what I've read, a police helicopter wasn't available because the the crew was on vacation, and once getting there, the boat the police were using to get to the island developed mechanical problems. Edited July 31, 2011 by American Woman Quote
Guest Derek L Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Oslo police had one helicopter crew and the entire crew was on vacation. This is a shameful failure on the part of the police and they deserve a lot of the blame for the high death toll. Emergency services should never be left unmanned because of vacation time for members. If the helicopter crew hadn’t have been on vacation, how do you see this playing out? Quote
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Yup. Thats what you see no matter where you look, on every issue. This has WAY more to do with YOU than any folks on that end of the political spectrum. All you see is me discussing things with people on this web site, many of whom happen to be left wing ideologues. That is, after all, why they're here, and why they have moronic political opinions. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Oh I'd probably sack the guy. But should the reason given be because the mans a thief? Or that he is complicit in robbery? Neither. It be because he's a lousy security guard. Just like the Norwegian police who should have gotten to this island far earlier are lousy cops. You cannot ascribe moral blame for the theft or the murder to the security guard or the cops. However, you can say that if they had been doing their job it likely wouldn't have happened, or at least, that it wouldn't have been as bad. So in that sense there is some responsibility. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 It would appear that large sections of this genius's Manifesto are held to some esteem by certain left-obsessed folks. If it was 1500 pages long then certain parts of it are bound to be fairly non contestable statements of fact and history. Large sections? I haven't seen anyone saying anything here other than that some of his positions are reasonable. No doubt some of Stalin's positions were reasonable to. No doubt, Sam Berkowitz had his moments of clarity. So what? Do you feel it intellectually necessary to condemn each and every thing this guy ever said and believed in order to express solidarity with the victims? Apparently he was in favour of gay rights. I guess, since you're in favour of gay rights, that you're a murderer in waiting. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 My impression is that hysteria from the Right about the Left eclipses its equal and opposite by a large measure...including right here on MLW. Being a member of the Left, you would believe that, of course. But the Right isn't out there blocking Left wingers from giving speeches. It's not our rioting or attacking people to stop members of the Left from giving presentations. It doesn't talk about how opinions it doesn't like ought to be enough to send the proponents of those opinions to prison. At any rate, if I were conservative, I might be inclined to wonder why, for example, terrorism has become an almost uniquely right-wing phenomenon. Terrorism is an almost unlikely Islamic phenomenon, actually, and unless my memory is awry you're one of those who is frantic to fight against any suggest that this reflects in any way, shape or form on Muslims. Terrorism is right wing? According to Europoli there were 45 Left wing terrorist incidents in Europe last year and zero by right wingers. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Well, depending on the gun and how many magazines one has, it’s not unfeasible to unload a few hundred rounds in a couple of minutes....half hour vs an hour is moot. I don't get what the heck you're talking about. He didn't "unload" his fire in a couple of minutes. He was firing the entire hour, right up until he was arrested. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 If the helicopter crew hadn’t have been on vacation, how do you see this playing out? What difference does that make? If this guy was able to get there in 30 minutes, and one presumes he wasn't speeding the entire time, then the cops ought to have been able to get there the same way he did in considerably less time than he took. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Guest Derek L Posted August 1, 2011 Report Posted August 1, 2011 I don't get what the heck you're talking about. He didn't "unload" his fire in a couple of minutes. He was firing the entire hour, right up until he was arrested. What difference does that make? If this guy was able to get there in 30 minutes, and one presumes he wasn't speeding the entire time, then the cops ought to have been able to get there the same way he did in considerably less time than he took. Unless that Norwegian police had of been on the island, them responding within 30 minutes or 60 or 90 is moot....The tragedy still would have occurred, is 40 kids killed really that much better than ~90? Quote
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