Did Europeans Deliberately Destroy Native Cultures in Their Colonies?

[eyeball]

What??

When speaking of the number of Native Americans that died from smallpox, it's not the "intent" that counted, it's the reality, and as such, I was responding to Jaycee's request for information, and it was the facts regarding the virus that she was interested in, not the intent. If the post I was responding to was about the intent, then I would have responded in regards to the intent.

As it stands, what I said is true. Very few, if any, Native Americans contacted smallpox and died due to contaminated blankets due to the fragile nature of the virus under such circumstances.

Your response is off the wall.

The reality is that the intent to attempt murder and injury was there. It was just one more in a slew of clever diabolical ideas as DOP put put it to wipe out as many natives as possible. Intent especially counts with something known to cause as much misery and suffering as smallpox.

Your apologetic approach to most discussions involving our country's or people's maltreatment of other people is as typical and supercilious as DOP's pagan ethos.

[Guest American Woman]

The reality is that the intent to attempt murder and injury was there. It was just one more in a slew of clever diabolical ideas as DOP put put it to wipe out as many natives as possible. Intent especially counts with something known to cause as much misery and suffering as smallpox.

And that has what exactly to do with the facts regarding the spread of the virus?

Your apologetic approach to most discussions involving our country's or people's maltreatment of other people is as typical and supercilious as DOP's pagan ethos.

Your dismissal of the facts whenever it suits your need to portray the west as nothing but evil is what's typical and quite frankly, the very definition of supercilious. You ignore any facts that don't meet with your agenda to the point that you are downright dishonest, as you think you are so morally superior.

I replied to a post asking specifically for a source regarding the spread of the virus via blankets. You, in your desperate need to portray the evils of the west, can't even see that - as you can't control your impulse insult me.

Once again. "Intent" doesn't count when referring to the "facts" of the virus. Try to wrap your brain around that truth - if you can ever manage any thought beyond your preconceived set-in-stone mindset - even when it has nothing to do with the post you are responding to.

[eyeball]

And that has what exactly to do with the facts regarding the spread of the virus?

Nothing, it's what it has to do with your apologetics that counts.

Your dismissal of the facts whenever it suits your need to portray the west as nothing but evil is what's typical and quite frankly, the very definition of supercilious. You ignore any facts that don't meet with your agenda to the point that you are downright dishonest, as you think you are so morally superior.

I clearly said our country's, not just your's.

I replied to a post asking specifically for a source regarding the spread of the virus via blankets. You, in your desperate need to portray the evils of the west, can't even see that - as you can't control your impulse insult me.

Once again. "Intent" doesn't count when referring to the "facts" of the virus. Try to wrap your brain around that truth - if you can ever manage any thought beyond your preconceived set-in-stone mindset - even when it has nothing to do with the post you are responding to.

Intent certainly counts in the context of the thread's title.

[Guest American Woman]

Nothing, it's what it has to do with your apologetics that counts.

How is stating the facts, providing the information that asked for, "apologetics?"

I clearly said our country's, not just your's.

I clearly said "the west," which in case you are unaware, includes Canada, too. Once again you respond to something that I didn't say at all.

Intent certainly counts in the context of the thread's title.

And if I were responding to the thread's title rather than the specific post that I was responding to, you'd have a point. But since I wasn't, you don't.

I ignore 99.9% of your posts because of your holier-than-thou extremist views along with your refusal to respond to what's said - and your inability to refrain from insults. I only responded this time because you were accusing me of something that's not true - putting meaning on my post/response that isn't there. I pointed it out, and any honest person with a kindergartner's ability to comprehend will be able to see it, so I will waste no more time with you. In that regard, I'll close with a quote from you - "smell you later."

[cybercoma]

Infected blankets is a drop in the ocean.

[Guest American Woman]

Infected blankets is a drop in the ocean.

Exactly. As pointed out in an earlier discussion, in response to jbg:

It is important to note, however, that these epidemics were just some of the causes of population decline during European contact. Intermarriage, slavery, wars, massacres, political disruption, economic changes, malnutrition, destruction of traditional subsistence patterns, and alcoholism also changed the composition of many Native American groups, whether they favored the changes or fought them. Eventually, these changes caused substantial depopulation and cultural change.

And the epidemics were due to face-to-face exposure, not the "intent" to expose them via blankets.

[eyeball]

And if I were responding to the thread's title rather than the specific post that I was responding to, you'd have a point. But since I wasn't, you don't.

All right lets cut to the chase then, in a single word, what's your answer to the thread title's very specific question? Yes or no?

I ignore 99.9% of your posts because of your holier-than-thou extremist views.

That's funny, I ignore 99.9 of your's because of your trivializing albeit long-winded views.

along with your refusal to respond to what's said

Listen what I say?

- and your inability to refrain from insults. I only responded this time because you were accusing me of something that's not true - putting meaning on my post/response that isn't there. I pointed it out, and any honest person with a kindergartner's ability to comprehend will be able to see it, so I will waste no more time with you. In that regard, I'll close with a quote from you - "smell you later."

It's not true? Prove it then and cut to the chase.

One word will do because that's all that's necessary. I apologize by the way should the answer be yes.

[DogOnPorch]

The reality is that the intent to attempt murder and injury was there. It was just one more in a slew of clever diabolical ideas as DOP put put it to wipe out as many natives as possible. Intent especially counts with something known to cause as much misery and suffering as smallpox.

Your apologetic approach to most discussions involving our country's or people's maltreatment of other people is as typical and supercilious as DOP's pagan ethos.

It wasn't the Third World that eradicated variola. It was the West. Plus, did we miss that particular chapter where Europeans (et al) died in droves due to disease? Or historically butchered during this invasion/purge/pogrom/etc or that invasion/purge/pogrom/etc? Sh*t happens on this planet...sometimes it happens to you.

Re: my "pagan ethos": I'm happy to match my world view with the likes of Churchill and FDR. There's a reason you're not moving you and your family to Smellgoatistan, land of opportunity.

[Remiel]

Considering the risk of infection from blankets is "slight," I doubt if many native Americans contacted it in such a manner - especially considering the amount of time that elapsed between the contamination and the distribution.

The difference between a person contracting smallpox from another person and them contracting it from a blanket is probably rather more than the difference in probability of an entire village contracting it from another person and of them contracting it from another source; all you need is a single person to get unlucky and contracted it from the source of " slight " risk and you are back in human to human territory, even if the latter difference is itself still substantial.

[cybercoma]

Considering how we know many Native tribes lived, that's a good point. There are documents where some tribes believed that the churches and Jesuits brought death through baptism. It was coming into close contact with people that spread many of these illnesses. However, maternal family lines where children raised by the entire community and few strictly monogamous relationships would have helped spread the diseases quickly. The Maori in New Zealand were devastated by syphilis in this way. The would send their women to the boats to welcome the newcomers with sex. These women would then go back to their communities and disease was spread. They weren't considered "whores", like they would be today; their lifestyle was simply more communal than those of Europeans.

[Guest American Woman]

The difference between a person contracting smallpox from another person and them contracting it from a blanket is probably rather more than the difference in probability of an entire village contracting it from another person and of them contracting it from another source; all you need is a single person to get unlucky and contracted it from the source of " slight " risk and you are back in human to human territory, even if the latter difference is itself still substantial.

I understand your point, but from what I've read, the virus would have to be on a scab in a controlled environment in order to survive on bedding et al, and provide even a "slight" chance of anyone contracting smallpox from blankets - and I doubt if there was any such control regarding the alleged smallpox infected blankets. Being 'theoretically possible' and 'realistically possible' are two different things.

Furthermore, in spite of an exchange of letters suggesting handing out smallpox infected blankets, there is no proof that the plan was ever carried out. If it had been, from what I've read, it would have been limited in scope and would not account for the wide spread occurrence of smallpox among Native Americans. Most likely the natives were infected by face-to-face contact, same as basically 99.9999% of other people who became ill with the virus - and many nationalities suffered large numbers of deaths from the disease. If it were unique to Native Americans, I think this theory would carry more weight, but it wasn't unique to them. Smallpox had a terrible history, resulting in millions of deaths worldwide - including Europe.

Edited July 10, 2011 by American Woman

[jacee]

I understand your point, but from what I've read, the virus would have to be on a scab in a controlled environment in order to survive on bedding et al, and provide even a "slight" chance of anyone contracting smallpox from blankets - and I doubt if there was any such control regarding the alleged smallpox infected blankets. Being 'theoretically possible' and 'realistically possible' are two different things.

Furthermore, in spite of an exchange of letters suggesting handing out smallpox infected blankets, there is no proof that the plan was ever carried out. If it had been, from what I've read, it would have been limited in scope and would not account for the wide spread occurrence of smallpox among Native Americans. Most likely the natives were infected by face-to-face contact, same as basically 99.9999% of other people who became ill with the virus - and many nationalities suffered large numbers of deaths from the disease. If it were unique to Native Americans, I think this theory would carry more weight, but it wasn't unique to them. Smallpox had a terrible history, resulting in millions of deaths worldwide - including Europe.

So you would use a smallpox blanket without fear?

I don't think 'history' as recorded by the invading powers can be considered definitive sources.

[Guest American Woman]

So you would use a smallpox blanket without fear?

A person's fears, whether justified or not, is a different issue from the facts concerning the situation. Out of curiosity. Would you drink out of a fountain that an AIDS infected person had just drank out of without fear? And does your answer change anything in regards to how AIDS is spread/became an epidemic? What would my fear, or lack of fear if that were the case, have to do with the reality of the situation under discussion? Do you think my answer would change the likelihood that Native Americans suffered from a smallpox epidemic spread by such means?

Your question is one that has nothing to do with the realistic chances of a smallpox epidemic resulting from infected blankets, and that's what was at issue. As I said, one has to look beyond the slight theoretical possibility into the realistic likelihood of the possibility. Furthermore, there's not any proof that infected blankets were even distributed. And if they were, how wide of a range to you think it would have involved? And who would have handled all of these infected blankets, handing them out, if the possibility of contacting smallpox from them was a very real danger?

I don't think 'history' as recorded by the invading powers can be considered definitive sources.

Of course not. It's always 'the other side,' which was totally innocent of any wrongdoing, that is to be believed. But just for the sake of argument, could you provide me with evidence from the other side that such blankets were distributed? Because as far as I've seen, it's "history as recorded by the invading powers" that has recorded the letters discussing the possibility of distributing smallpox infected blankets. So are they not to be believed then?

But how likely it was that smallpox was spread by blankets has nothing to do with "history recorded by invading powers" or history recorded by those invaded; it has to do with the virus itself - So one has to look at all the facts and determine how reasonable it would be, how likely it would have been, to have spread smallpox in such a manner - especially considering the death toll that the world suffered as a result of the virus. As I said, a high death toll due to the smallpox virus was not unique to Native Americans by any means, and in fact, the Europeans themselves suffered high death tolls from the virus.

[jacee]

Your question is one that has nothing to do with the realistic chances of a smallpox epidemic resulting from infected blankets, and that's what was at issue. As I said, one has to look beyond the slight theoretical possibility into the realistic likelihood of the possibility. Furthermore, there's not any proof that infected blankets were even distributed.

Actually my real point is that some people seem to have a strong need to believe that it didn't happen and to convince others.

Why is that? We're only speculating about the actions of merchants, their private militia and churches, all of whom continue to violate human rights and plunder the land of native peoples of the Americas today.

Interesting that you don't actually quote the Mayo clinic that said

'Smallpox can also be spread by infected clothes and blankets though the risk is slight.'

slight . . . but not absent, especially perhaps for native people highly susceptible.

And why do some people have the need to insist it didn't happen when the facts are not clear?

[Guest American Woman]

Actually my real point is that some people seem to have a strong need to believe that it didn't happen and to convince others.

And your question had what, exactly, to do with that "real point?" And what, exactly, does your "real point" have to do with the facts regarding the virus?

Interesting that you don't actually quote the Mayo clinic that said

'Smallpox can also be spread by infected clothes and blankets though the risk is slight.'

slight . . . but not absent, especially perhaps for native people highly susceptible.

Ummmmm. I did quote that. Did you even read my post?? I've been referring to it ever since. So again. Yes, in a controlled environment there is a "slight" risk of the virus, on a scab, being spread by bedding. Are you now going to suggest that that was possibly the case?

And why do some people have the need to insist it didn't happen when the facts are not clear?

I guess you'd have to ask those people. In the meantime, nice dodge of all the points I did make/the questions I asked. Good to see that you realize the facts aren't clear, however - that it's speculation that infected blankets were distributed and smallpox became an epidemic among Native Americans because of it. Now I suggest you look at the likelihood that it happened that way ............

Edited July 10, 2011 by American Woman

[Shwa]

I understand your point, but from what I've read, the virus would have to be on a scab in a controlled environment in order to survive on bedding et al, and provide even a "slight" chance of anyone contracting smallpox from blankets - and I doubt if there was any such control regarding the alleged smallpox infected blankets. Being 'theoretically possible' and 'realistically possible' are two different things.

And yet the Europeans of the day were familiar with this theory of infected blankets. If blankets were a prized commodity among the Native Americans, then it wouldn't be a stretch to think that they might accept them as gifts unaware that such blankets came directly off recently deceased victims of smallpox.

Furthermore, in spite of an exchange of letters suggesting handing out smallpox infected blankets, there is no proof that the plan was ever carried out. If it had been, from what I've read, it would have been limited in scope

But that is not the point. The point of the letters proves a deliberation of sorts, hence the title of this thread.

The probability of infection from blankets is low, but not entirely impossible and even they Brits back in the day were aware of this and at least considered using them as a deliberate attempt to destroy.

[jacee]

Good to see that you realize the facts aren't clear, however - that it's speculation that infected blankets were distributed and smallpox became an epidemic among Native Americans because of it. Now I suggest you look at the likelihood that it happened that way ............

It's possible and considering the profit motive, I think quite plausible. It isn't possible to be certain.

[DogOnPorch]

Forget it AW...these fellows want desperately to believe the Native Indians of North and South America died in droves by the deliberate action of one man during the French Indian War. It matters not that it isn't how the virus works.

[Jack Weber]

According to the Mayo Clinic, the possibility of contacting smallpox from infected blankets is "slight."

How smallpox spreads

Smallpox usually requires fairly prolonged face-to-face contact to spread. It's most often transmitted in air droplets when an infected person coughs, sneezes or talks. In rare instances, airborne virus may spread further, possibly through the ventilation system in a building, infecting people in other rooms or on other floors. Smallpox can also spread through contact with contaminated clothing and bedding, although the risk of infection from these sources is slight.

Considering the risk of infection from blankets is "slight," I doubt if many native Americans contacted it in such a manner - especially considering the amount of time that elapsed between the contamination and the distribution.

Agreed that the chance is slight,but,it would only take one or two people to be infected and the virus would spread rapidly...

I suspect they contracted it the old fashioned way,however,and with little to no immunity to the virus at all it simply consumed mass amounts of the indigenous population...

[DogOnPorch]

Agreed that the chance is slight,but,it would only take one or two people to be infected and the virus would spread rapidly...

I suspect they contracted it the old fashioned way,however,and with little to no immunity to the virus at all it simply consumed mass amounts of the indigenous population...

Except said blankets needed to go overland for many miles/days...variola needs humans to survive. It does not like hanging out on countertops and toilet seats...or blankets.

[cybercoma]

Who cares about the blankets. Seriously. Drop in the ocean. Whether they got it from the blankets or from the people they came into contact with does not matter.

[Shwa]

Except said blankets needed to go overland for many miles/days...variola needs humans to survive. It does not like hanging out on countertops and toilet seats...or blankets.

Except in the case of the siege of Fort Pitt in which the Native Americans in question were a few yards away and there were active cases of smallpox within the fort.

[Shwa]

Who cares about the blankets. Seriously. Drop in the ocean. Whether they got it from the blankets or from the people they came into contact with does not matter.

Read the title of the thread and note the word "deliberately." I think that is part of the question that is being established.

Because there was an "ocean" of indeliberate acts does not mean there were no deliberate acts at all. So even a few isolated acts is informative since it reveals intent at a high level of the chain of command.

[eyeball]

Who cares about the blankets. Seriously. Drop in the ocean. Whether they got it from the blankets or from the people they came into contact with does not matter.

Intent matters, it says volumes about the people who did it and why. Trivializing and even celebrating that intent today pretty much says the same thing.

[Wild Bill]

Except said blankets needed to go overland for many miles/days...variola needs humans to survive. It does not like hanging out on countertops and toilet seats...or blankets.

Good question! What's more, where did all these blankets come from? We haven't heard about white men dying in droves on North American shores. So they must have had boatloads of blankets shipped over from Europe.

Since apparently it was common knowledge that blankets from small pox victims carried the disease (after all, there were printing presses and literacy rates were SO high! If one or two Dutch doctors knew about it then the whole Old World must have as well!) then boatloads must have been available. Also, they must have known how to isolate the blankets so that none of the ships' crews got sick. They must also have been able to cross the ocean far faster than historical records tell us. They must have hired Captain Nemo or perhaps the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

For need of any other solution to this problem of effectively infecting so many North American Indians with smallpox we need only to turn to the Illuminati, who of course are all reputed to be "white bread".

These type of arguments are living proof of why lawyers make such poor engineers or techs. When a machine won't work they think the solution lies in constructing a good argument as to why it should. They feel no need to actually open up the machine and would have no clue what to do even if they did!

Edited July 11, 2011 by Wild Bill