Board Fatigue

[Remiel]

You would think that with the vacations I have been taking from here for eight months of the year that I would have a little more resilience to the crap that goes on here built up. But when people that you do not expect that much of manage to lower the bar that much lower... bleh... It is enough to make me miss (sort of) the intelligent offensiveness of Argus.

I mean, there are some good posters left, and even some good newer posters. But I feel we are missing out for not having Black Dog and Rue around very much, and geoffrey and Charles Anthony do not post anymore at all (among others, like jdobbin and FTA Lawyer). I am sure other can think of others they use to appreciate being around as well.

Anyone else get the feeling that things have gone downhill?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't think so. We have good posters from all sides of the political spectrum, as we did. Of course they're different from the ones in the 'old days' but these things are hard to quantify really.

[Topaz]

Do you think some of the problems were the personal attacks some posters had/have to take? I've gotten about jobbin, he really had to take the shots and maybe that's why he's not here. Then again, don't some change names after a while?

[August1991]

Anyone else get the feeling that things have gone downhill?

I agree with Michael. Same circus, different clowns.

Then again, don't some change names after a while?

Are you Capricorn or MapleSyrup?

[jbg]

Do you think some of the problems were the personal attacks some posters had/have to take? I've gotten about jobbin, he really had to take the shots and maybe that's why he's not here. Then again, don't some change names after a while?

Jdobbin gave as good as he got. I weep no tears for that paid LPC poster.

[Sir Bandelot]

Jdobbin gave as good as he got. I weep no tears for that paid LPC poster.

I don't understand why people get so angry with each other, and take offence to issues that are mostly not within our power to control anyway. Some have a need to hurl insult toward others, with name calling such as "moron", "idiotic" or "disingenuous", etc. I think people who do that have an ego problem. They somehow need to confirm to themselves that they are superior to other people, and they do so by putting others down.

One part of the problem is our anonymity. I suspect that if we ad to use our real names, most people would be far better behaved. It's like when driving cars, people get behind the wheel where no one can easily see you, cannot touch you speak directly to you and don't know who you are. Once this happens, some people become sociopaths. But if we knew who they really were, and where they lived, they would become so nice...

[jbg]

I don't understand why people get so angry with each other, and take offence to issues that are mostly not within our power to control anyway. Some have a need to hurl insult toward others, with name calling such as "moron", "idiotic" or "disingenuous", etc.

As you know I rarely do that. In the case of jdobbin, for no good reason he put me on "ignore" and advertised it. Previously I had treated him as a friend; I posted what I did earlier more in sadness than in anger.

[bloodyminded]

You would think that with the vacations I have been taking from here for eight months of the year that I would have a little more resilience to the crap that goes on here built up. But when people that you do not expect that much of manage to lower the bar that much lower... bleh... It is enough to make me miss (sort of) the intelligent offensiveness of Argus.

I mean, there are some good posters left, and even some good newer posters. But I feel we are missing out for not having Black Dog and Rue around very much, and geoffrey and Charles Anthony do not post anymore at all (among others, like jdobbin and FTA Lawyer). I am sure other can think of others they use to appreciate being around as well.

Anyone else get the feeling that things have gone downhill?

I can't speak to the direction the board has taken generally, but since I've become friendlier with a few old enemies, it's improved greatly for myself!

[Sir Bandelot]

As you know I rarely do that. In the case of jdobbin, for no good reason he put me on "ignore" and advertised it. Previously I had treated him as a friend; I posted what I did earlier more in sadness than in anger.

I agree you do not generally do that. My comments were not directed specifically towards you, jbg.

I think the people who 'survive' here longest are the ones who do not take these discussions personally, either towards themselves or in attacking others. I prefer to engage people on neutral ground. Discuss issues, not ridicule the poster. Doing that is a sign of weakness, IMO. If the person seems to be trolling or making extreme, inflammatory statements, I generally depart from the conversation. I am not a kid and don't have time for the "yes it is... no it isn't" type of arguments. Sometimes we must concede that we have differences, and simply move on.

What is surprising to me is how different we can be in some areas of debate, and how similar in others.

[Topaz]

I agree with Michael. Same circus, different clowns.

Are you Capricorn or MapleSyrup?

As popeye said, "I am who I am and that's all I am. I like my name.

[Wild Bill]

I HAVE noticed that a few newer posters have very foul mouths and persist in personal attacks if they appear to be losing an argument! Their debating style seems more in keeping with what we'd find on "rubble.com".

Perhaps they're refugees from that board, I don't know. I do know that I don't enjoy their presence.

Ah well, at least there's an "ignore" button.

[Michael Hardner]

Report them away, I say.

[Remiel]

I don't understand why people get so angry with each other, and take offence to issues that are mostly not within our power to control anyway. Some have a need to hurl insult toward others, with name calling such as "moron", "idiotic" or "disingenuous", etc. I think people who do that have an ego problem. They somehow need to confirm to themselves that they are superior to other people, and they do so by putting others down.

The fact that it is against the rules of this board notwithstanding, what exactly is so extra-ordinarily bad about insulted someone in this fashion? If one persons says, " We would all be bettr off if they just killed all the <people in group X>, " and the a second person says, " Fuck you, asshole, " why would one say that what was really wrong with this conversation is that the second person insulted the first person.

Also, I do not understand what is so bad about " disingenuos " . If someone were to now point out that it is disingenuous of me to suggest that all manner of insults should be tolerated as a matter of course, I do not think I could fault their analysis. Maybe, however, I misunderstand the word, though I doubt it.

One part of the problem is our anonymity. I suspect that if we ad to use our real names, most people would be far better behaved. It's like when driving cars, people get behind the wheel where no one can easily see you, cannot touch you speak directly to you and don't know who you are. Once this happens, some people become sociopaths. But if we knew who they really were, and where they lived, they would become so nice...

jdobbin is actually a good counterpoint to this. Apparently he was either banned or left, but I believe that jdobbin was in fact his name. I looked it up once in a list of professionals in the field he claimed to be a part of once. And yet, he apparently was anything but immune heated rhetoric.

Also, I think it would be mistaken to assume that anonymity is always bad. This would be to also assume that people can freely discuss some important topics in real life without having risking the destruction of ones reputation on a missaid word, or a misunderstood topic. Take my earlier example: If you are interested in having a somewhat academic (in the counterfactual use of the word) discussion of " X should die, " and someone else says, " If you want X to die, you are a racist piece of shit, " then you have learned a valuable lesson: Do not talk about the subject " X should die, " with people who may not understand where you are coming from. Of course, on a message board, more often then not people who say, " X should die, " really mean it, though maybe not as strongly as it seems, does not negate the fact that others who approach it more honestly do benefit.

To use a more concrete example, it is extraordinarily difficult to speak critically in public of Israel without being called an anti-Semite, and at least as often as not the allegation is simply false. Should only people who do not care about their reputations and people who are brave enough to weather it be entitled to speak with strangers who may have differing opinions?

Finally though, I think it is also false, at least for some debaters (of which I would include myself) that anonymity means complete freedom. If you believe " Remiel is a fascist pig, " , then you believe that I am a fascist pig, and the fact that you know me by the name Remiel and not my " real " name is not truly relevant to this belief.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Remiel

[Wild Bill]

The fact that it is against the rules of this board notwithstanding, what exactly is so extra-ordinarily bad about insulted someone in this fashion? If one persons says, " We would all be bettr off if they just killed all the <people in group X>, " and the a second person says, " Fuck you, asshole, " why would one say that what was really wrong with this conversation is that the second person insulted the first person.

Also, I do not understand what is so bad about " disingenuos " . If someone were to now point out that it is disingenuous of me to suggest that all manner of insults should be tolerated as a matter of course, I do not think I could fault their analysis. Maybe, however, I misunderstand the word, though I doubt it.

jdobbin is actually a good counterpoint to this. Apparently he was either banned or left, but I believe that jdobbin was in fact his name. I looked it up once in a list of professionals in the field he claimed to be a part of once. And yet, he apparently was anything but immune heated rhetoric.

Also, I think it would be mistaken to assume that anonymity is always bad. This would be to also assume that people can freely discuss some important topics in real life without having risking the destruction of ones reputation on a missaid word, or a misunderstood topic. Take my earlier example: If you are interested in having a somewhat academic (in the counterfactual use of the word) discussion of " X should die, " and someone else says, " If you want X to die, you are a racist piece of shit, " then you have learned a valuable lesson: Do not talk about the subject " X should die, " with people who may not understand where you are coming from. Of course, on a message board, more often then not people who say, " X should die, " really mean it, though maybe not as strongly as it seems, does not negate the fact that others who approach it more honestly do benefit.

To use a more concrete example, it is extraordinarily difficult to speak critically in public of Israel without being called an anti-Semite, and at least as often as not the allegation is simply false. Should only people who do not care about their reputations and people who are brave enough to weather it be entitled to speak with strangers who may have differing opinions?

Finally though, I think it is also false, at least for some debaters (of which I would include myself) that anonymity means complete freedom. If you believe " Remiel is a fascist pig, " , then you believe that I am a fascist pig, and the fact that you know me by the name Remiel and not my " real " name is not truly relevant to this belief.

Remiel, you make some good points but it is important to remember, the problem here is not academic examples. In the real world, there are far too many people who deliberately use anonymity as a shield and a tool to get away with unpleasant behaviour. If left unopposed, any forum board will degenerate into a disgusting mess, a la "rubble.com". It will become one long, profane screech of ad hominem insults, where the loudest and most profane will claim to be the victor of any debate!

[Oleg Bach]

When I first arrived here I was called a rube and a clown - I was rejected by the more learned and sophisticated acedemics...now after all this time - I am still a rube and a clown...but now I have street creds...those patient with me have found out that once in a while I stumble upon something useful and enlightening. Even if those lucky stumblings are rare - the good ones are at least a contribution worth waiting for. New members are interesting - older members expect you to earn their respect..over all - even if there is one good person talking to another single good person - then that makes Mapleleaf...worth while.

[cybercoma]

Do you think some of the problems were the personal attacks some posters had/have to take? I've gotten about jobbin, he really had to take the shots and maybe that's why he's not here. Then again, don't some change names after a while?

There has been an inordinate amount of personal attacks on the forum over the last couple of weeks. It's not only the personal attacks that are distasteful to this type of forum, but posters insulting entire groups of people (ie: comments about all postal workers, or all managers, or the NDP caucus, or all Conservatives, etc). It seems that the "moderators" or "forum facilitators" don't really pay much attention, but who knows what kind or how many PMs they've been sending out. It would be nice to see every once and awhile threads get locked for descending into childish name-calling.

[Oleg Bach]

There has been an inordinate amount of personal attacks on the forum over the last couple of weeks. It's not only the personal attacks that are distasteful to this type of forum, but posters insulting entire groups of people (ie: comments about all postal workers, or all managers, or the NDP caucus, or all Conservatives, etc). It seems that the "moderators" or "forum facilitators" don't really pay much attention, but who knows what kind or how many PMs they've been sending out. It would be nice to see every once and awhile threads get locked for descending into childish name-calling.

Trust me they do pay attention - but they allow you to go the distance then suddenly you become one of the disappeared for 30 days or forever - The mods do show up to ensure quality. Personal attacks are tolerated but not to the point of cheapening the site,