Detainees paper again?

[Topaz]

After spending 12 million for 362 documents or 4000 pages, the government released more papers. I really don't think they are going to find anything or the government wouldn't have put them out there, right? There's many blackout pages, of course and no one is going to find anything. A couple years ago, I remember reading an article when this broke about David Mulroney, who was the head of the Afghan Task Force and the Canadian Ambassador Arif Lalani and the Public Servant Colvin, who brought this all out in the public. When Colvin went to Mulroney and told him of his thoughts about the torturing, Mulroney refuse to listen and told him to stop writing reports and use the phone instead. Mulroney and Lalani stifled info on the Karzai regime at the time and that Lalani is very close friend of Karzai. So, it did come out that Afghans were torturing but the question still reminds did the PMO know and O'Connor know. http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110622/detainee-documents-110622/

[William Ashley]

I hear that J.K. Rowling is putting out a new book or something - is this related?

The bible only has what 900 or so pages... MADNESS.

This is more pages than a budget.

As if anyone actually read it, they likely just randomly got a computer to put black lines on pages and randomly select "national security" pages.

Anyone reading this thing - lots of pictures?

Maybe they could release a picture book version (I hear a picture is worth a thousand words)

They are going to have to hand out medals and veterans benefits to anyone who fights that battle.

The odd case here is that the PM "exhonerated" Canadian Forces of wrongdoing.. (why would you need to if it didn't exist)

Its a good thing the international criminal court is run by NATO.

The google stuff just looks like S&M bs. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=detainee%20abuse%20afghanistan&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=200l3610l0l26l19l0l3l3l0l298l3182l0.9.7l16&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1366&bih=623&wrapid=tlif130878390956311&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

Edited June 22, 2011 by William Ashley

[Sir Bandelot]

Canadians voted in the Harper government, with a majority. This in spite of the fact that we have evidence they hide the truth about what's been done in Afghanistan, and the situation with Omar Kadr.

Canadians, we the public (but not me or people like me) share responsibility for our what our government has done. We condone it, by voting for them we encourage it to continue. And hopefully, god willing, we will pay the price.

[PIK]

Canadians voted in the Harper government, with a majority. This in spite of the fact that we have evidence they hide the truth about what's been done in Afghanistan, and the situation with Omar Kadr.

Canadians, we the public (but not me or people like me) share responsibility for our what our government has done. We condone it, by voting for them we encourage it to continue. And hopefully, god willing, we will pay the price.

Harper cleaned up the mess left behind by chretien. The prisoners should have been handed over to the americans but oh no, chretien was not going to deal with the evil americans, and that is why we are in this mess. Chretien never cared about anything but power, he did things that kept the power no matter if it was good or not for the country. And mark my words he will go down as the biggest slimeball we ever had for PM. But I do laugh at the short memories of people.

[Keepitsimple]

The reason that this issue has never gathered much real traction with Canadians is that reasonable non-partisans have always know that Afghanistan was/is a s**thole and that things were pretty bad at the beginning of the conflict - and to a large degree, still are. As PIK said, we could have handed them over to the Americans but that wasn't feasible because of the uproar over the highly publicized Abu Graib fiasco. So Canada upgraded the weak handover policy that the Liberals left behind and then as reports on the ground indicated issues, the policies were tightened as we went along. To a reasonable person, it would appear that Canada did the best we could in very trying circumstances....short of building our own prisons and forgoing the opportunity to work with the Afghans to improve their prisons..... or bringing them back to Canada.

What a crappy position to be in.....and I find it ironic that the same people who preach in terms of moral relevance and are willing to accept or ignore the prisoner abuse and unlawful detention that exists all over the middle east - will totally abandon this moral relevance argument when there's an opportunity to make cheap political points.

There are reasons who Conservative popularity continues to grow and one of them is that more and more, the opposition "attacks" are seen for what they are - outrageous exagerrations.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[Oleg Bach]

Twelve million bucks to find out that our forces and leaders were so naive that they did not know that Afghani sources would beat the shit out of a Taliban prisoner that was shooting at them and killed one of their sons or brothers? I could have told you that they would abuse their transfered over prisoners for 12 bucks not 12 million. Who pays for this useless documentation that looks like it was blotted out by an ambitious and mischievious second rate crown attorney?

[Oleg Bach]

I could see the proud and confident Peter Mckay say to the Afghani freedom fighters...."Here is a guy that we beieve is Taliban...I am going to hand him over to you because I know you are an honourable and just tribesman" ------------wonderful...Did leaders like Mckay not realize that a freedom fighter could be a freedom fighter one week and a Taliban warrior the next and vise versa? Whether they be so-called ligitimate Afghani forces or Taliban is of little consequence - BOTH function under tribal law and justice always comes in the form of harsh revenge which includes torture...why did our authorities not figure that out - that both are brutes?

[ToadBrother]

There are reasons who Conservative popularity continues to grow and one of them is that more and more, the opposition "attacks" are seen for what they are - outrageous exagerrations.

To me the issue was always about Parliament's authority over the Government. I didn't approve of the witch hunt, but I did approve of Parliament's right, at its discretion, to do so. My problem with the Tories was that they were trying to undermine the single most important constitutional restraint on the Executive that we have.

As to the prisoners themselves, as you say, Afghanistan has never been a country, not even in ancient times, where notions like human dignity or human rights had much meaning.

[Oleg Bach]

To me the issue was always about Parliament's authority over the Government. I didn't approve of the witch hunt, but I did approve of Parliament's right, at its discretion, to do so. My problem with the Tories was that they were trying to undermine the single most important constitutional restraint on the Executive that we have.

As to the prisoners themselves, as you say, Afghanistan has never been a country, not even in ancient times, where notions like human dignity or human rights had much meaning.

What makes you think we have human digntiy.....we have men marrying men...and half our population is on pills and or street drugs...yah - we are so much better than these guys.

[Topaz]

On the news, it was reported that the International Court, is watching the come of this, so this may not be over for the Tories.

[Smallc]

Well, at least, you hope it isn't, right?

[Sir Bandelot]

Well, at least, you hope it isn't, right?

It should only be over when justice is served. That goes for the Chretien government as well. Real justice is not partisan, Smallc.

[Topaz]

Those recent documents apparently did so evidence of that the government knew, which surprised me. Since David Mulroney answered to the PMO, and Mulroney was aware of the possible chances of torturing going on, then he had to have told the PM. Though the exact date is not filed, Harper made a surprised visit to see Karzai, on May 22/07, and Karzai denied any torturing after a meeting with the PM. http://www.windsorstar.com/news/canada-in-afghanistan/Canadian+officials+knew+Afghan+torture+claims+Documents/4996583/story.html

[scribblet]

Keep stretching - no smoking gun

War crimes evidence hard to find

In the end, military investigators usually concluded there was less to the allegations than first thought.

While possible Canadian complicity in torture in Afghan jails has long gripped politicians in Ottawa, this week’s disclosure of 4,000 pages of released records failed to reveal any smoking guns.

[PIK]

And how many were really tortured, do they have any real evidence or just assuming. I have read where in one incident, 12 were handed over and 2 hrs later 10 are walking down the street. All this is,is a PR stunt by the sore losing left. You lost give it up.

[Oleg Bach]

And how many were really tortured, do they have any real evidence or just assuming. I have read where in one incident, 12 were handed over and 2 hrs later 10 are walking down the street. All this is,is a PR stunt by the sore losing left. You lost give it up.

.......................... never trust a tribesman with a grude. Or a politican that trusts a tribesman to do what is civil.

[Smallc]

Real justice is not partisan, Smallc.

Maybe not, but Topaz is.

[ToadBrother]

And how many were really tortured, do they have any real evidence or just assuming. I have read where in one incident, 12 were handed over and 2 hrs later 10 are walking down the street. All this is,is a PR stunt by the sore losing left. You lost give it up.

If it was no big deal, why did the Government go so far as to try to violate a three hundred year old constitutional rule to keep MPs from seeing the documents?

[bloodyminded]

What a crappy position to be in.....and I find it ironic that the same people who preach in terms of moral relevance and are willing to accept or ignore the prisoner abuse and unlawful detention that exists all over the middle east - will totally abandon this moral relevance argument when there's an opportunity to make cheap political points.

This may shock you...but Canadians are bound by Canadian law. Not by the laws of middle Eastern countries.

So, are you saying it's no big deal to flout Canadian law, because many other countries' laws are worse?

There are reasons who Conservative popularity continues to grow and one of them is that more and more, the opposition "attacks" are seen for what they are - outrageous exagerrations.

Yes, the poor little Conservatives remain perpetual victims, even with a majority government. You gotta feel bad for these long-suffering heroes.

[Scotty]

Canadians voted in the Harper government, with a majority. This in spite of the fact that we have evidence they hide the truth about what's been done in Afghanistan, and the situation with Omar Kadr.

Canadians, we the public (but not me or people like me) share responsibility for our what our government has done. We condone it, by voting for them we encourage it to continue. And hopefully, god willing, we will pay the price.

Omar Khadr and his entire family can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what's done to them.

And Afghanistan is a shithole full of corrupt barbarous people. The whining of the leftist set about what happened to prisoners after we turned them over to their own government has always struck me as ludicrous. What were we supposed to do, bring them to Canada? That whole society is in the toilet from the top down. There's no one and no organization there which can be trusted in any way, shape or form.

[bloodyminded]

And Afghanistan is a shithole full of corrupt barbarous people.

Evidently, so is Canada, since you're defending the barbarous practice of breaking Canadian law, so that Canada remains complicit in the torture of people, some of whom are undoubtedly innocent of any crime.

The whining of the leftist set about what happened to prisoners after we turned them over to their own government has always struck me as ludicrous.

What about the whining of the conservative set who throw pretty little tantums every time Canada's behaviour is questioned?

What were we supposed to do, bring them to Canada? That whole society is in the toilet from the top down. There's no one and no organization there which can be trusted in any way, shape or form.

Including our own? Or are we the single beacon of light in a benighted world?

At any rate, I'm glad to see you admit that both our government--Conservative and Liberal--as well as our military brass (propagandists, in lay terms) are lying directly into our faces about all the wonderful progress we've made in Afghanistan.

Hardly the fault of the "leftist set"; and 100% the fault of our "centrist" and "conservative sets."

Oddly, you don't blame them for their failure, nor for their lies. Much easier to screech "The Left! The Left!"

[ToadBrother]

Omar Khadr and his entire family can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what's done to them.

And Afghanistan is a shithole full of corrupt barbarous people. The whining of the leftist set about what happened to prisoners after we turned them over to their own government has always struck me as ludicrous. What were we supposed to do, bring them to Canada? That whole society is in the toilet from the top down. There's no one and no organization there which can be trusted in any way, shape or form.

While I'm not convinced the detainee issue was ever that huge, your post seems to suggest that you think going to nasty places and acting badly or delivering people to those who will act badly is just fine. Does that sum up your position?

[Scotty]

Evidently, so is Canada, since you're defending the barbarous practice of breaking Canadian law,

Moral equivalency at its intellectually bankrupt finest.

[Scotty]

While I'm not convinced the detainee issue was ever that huge, your post seems to suggest that you think going to nasty places and acting badly or delivering people to those who will act badly is just fine. Does that sum up your position?

We didn't act badly. And I notice you avoid answering my question. What exactly were we to do with prisoners? Shoot them?

[RNG]

We didn't act badly. And I notice you avoid answering my question. What exactly were we to do with prisoners? Shoot them?

He probably thinks we should have transported them here, given them housing and having you and me support them for the rest of their lives. That's how "they" think.