Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[Guest American Woman]

You guys are the ones throwing around the Mufti/Nazi/anti-semitic argument... I'd like to see you back it up.

Do you honestly believe it was anti-semitism that made the Arabs fight for their land (*whether or not you agree that was their land*) or are you willing to acknowledge, just a little bit, that they would have fought equally hard not matter who had decided to buy Palestine?

Let's see if you answer my question this time or if you'll deflect once again.

I'm not so sure they would have objected as much as they did "no matter who" was involved - I think religion definitely plays into the conflict, making peace less attainable, dragging out the conflict.

If there is no anti-antisemitism involved in the conflict, how do you explain the refusal of the PLO and Hamas to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?

[DogOnPorch]

I totally agree. I don't think the Arabs would have fought any less if it were Americans, Europeans, or Chinese who wanted to move in and take their land.

DOP is a one-trick pony when it comes to the Mufti.

Good gravy...another. Nobody has taken Middle East history or what? What's next? Goering was actually a jolly fellow?

[dre]

I'm not so sure they would have objected as much as they did "no matter who" was involved - I think religion definitely plays into the conflict, making peace less attainable, dragging out the conflict.

If there is no anti-antisemitism involved in the conflict, how do you explain the refusal of the PLO and Hamas to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?

Theres lot of racism on BOTH sides at this point. They hate each other...

[dre]

Good gravy...another. Nobody has taken Middle East history or what? What's next? Goering was actually a jolly fellow?

Nobody has taken Middle East history or what?

:lol:

[DogOnPorch]

:lol:

Well we know YOU haven't.

[BC_chick]

Nobody is disagreeing that the Arabs/Muslims view this land as their own (a false narrative you have tacitly accepted) and that they would likely fight others engaging in what the Arab/Muslims perceive as infidels unjustifiably living independently.

IOW, the whole Mufti/anti-semitism connection is moot point because the Arabs would have fought non-Jews just the same if they were moving in on that *LAND*.

Thanks for the honest answer, for once, Bob.

[Oleg Bach]

No, I have a problem with people who preach to "Zionists" while living comfortably in "settled" Canada (or the United States), even as their military machines "ethnically cleanse" the locals in far off nations in the interest of "human rights".

I have a problem with people who sit in board rooms and say "we are at war". Never like the Orwellian term "ethinic cleansing" - It implys something is dirty and needs a good washing out...completely out. Zionism along with other things such as Socialism are always practiced by the comfortable and well to do - kind of like an important hobby. In the mean time these arm chair trouble makers put the less privledged and comfortable through hell.

[Oleg Bach]

IOW, the whole Mufti/anti-semitism connection is moot point because the Arabs would have fought non-Jews just the same if they were moving in on that *LAND*.

Thanks for the honest answer, for once, Bob.

They have all lost sight of how to create and run a civlized world. Most feud whether they are within a family or between larger national groups are usually stated over someone taking a bussel of tomatoes without permission - and on and on it goes and no one knows how to settle a problem - because there was no real serious problem to begin with - And our friend BOB who dropped by really likes the fact that he has a purpose in his life - If it were not for the Zionist club he belongs too - He would probably be waiting on tables....Thank God for causes that instill some sort of self importance....ANYTHING WORTH FIGHTING FOR IS NOT WORTH HAVING.

[DogOnPorch]

IOW, the whole Mufti/anti-semitism connection is moot point because the Arabs would have fought non-Jews just the same if they were moving in on that *LAND*.

Thanks for the honest answer, for once, Bob.

Yeah right...let's dial back even further then. Gosh...they were bastards to begin with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

[Oleg Bach]

Yeah right...let's dial back even further then. Gosh...they were bastards to begin with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

Passive resistance works. It is the intelligent way of doing things. When these commandos who are mere Israeli boys were repelling down form the choppers in an attempt to secure that ship - The last thing that should have been done is to beat these boys with an iron bar while still suspended on ropes - helpless at that moment. To strike them with weapons takes intense hatred and rage...The flotilla guys were full of hate...and hate clouds the mind and muddles the cause.

In the alternative if the first flotilla was manned by truely intelligent people - they would have let the commandos board and taken it from there..You can not negotitate with someone swinging an iron bar to your head..Not that I am pro-Israeli when it comes to the Palistinian question - but I am pro - civilization believe that if you hate something long enough you become what you hate. Israelis slowly evolved in to some sort of facist thing - and the flotilla people evolved into thugs attempting to cave in sculls.

[Guest American Woman]

Theres lot of racism on BOTH sides at this point. They hate each other...

Israel hasn't refused to acknowledge Islamic states as such.

[dre]

Israel hasn't refused to acknowledge Islamic states as such.

If someone tries to build an islamic state in Israel, then I bet they will. The rejection of Israel as a state is based on the belief that they built it on land that didnt belong to them. It wouldnt make any difference if it was an Irish state.

In any case the racism cuts both ways.

Theres nothing exotic or unique about this conflict. Its a garden variety dust-up over dirt and water. Both sides think its theirs... and Israelis dont recognize Palestines right to a state any more than Palestine recognizes Israels.

[Oleg Bach]

Israel hasn't refused to acknowledge Islamic states as such.

Semites both Arab and Jew must understand that all of them come from the same source - that one is not more entitled to life and liberty than the other. A great society or civilzation is judged by how well they take care of their weakest members. The same should be said of the international community. Israel has been and probably will always be weak because of it's small size. So they cling to their nuclear weapons as some sort of insurance of survival. Extremist thought whether it be racist Zionism - Or racist Islamo-facism...should be address in the fact that neither can lead to peace and a civil world.

To not allow Israel to exist is like saying that the person standing alone on the side of the road - who is slight in stature - should be tossed under the bus - simply because they are weak. The west and most Arab nations assume that Israel is strong and should be challenged. Israel can NOT use it`s nuclear arsenal with impuntiy _ Geographically the area where a war of this type would take place is simply to small - For Israel to use nuclear arms is suicide. So the Arab nations that hate Israel are dealing with a nation that is willing to destroy itself rather than give in. So it is at a stale mate...and they all must understand if you are going to burn Israel you burn yourself...and vise versa.

[BC_chick]

Yeah right...let's dial back even further then. Gosh...they were bastards to begin with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

And the one-trick pony strikes again. Not only are Arabs 'anti-semites' for fighting for their land, they're 'bastards' for conquering other land too.

No other race/people have ever conquered land or fought for their exising land. Of course not, it's just Muslims who do things like that.

Break out the violins and cry Israel a river all you want, but I'm sorry, fighting for land has being going on since the dawn of humanity and it has nothing to do with being Muslim or Christian or Jewish.

[Guest American Woman]

If someone tries to build an islamic state in Israel, then I bet they will. The rejection of Israel as a state is based on the belief that they built it on land that didnt belong to them. It wouldnt make any difference if it was an Irish state.

My comment was clearly in reference to the refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, not refusal to recognize Israel as a state.

In any case the racism cuts both ways.

Again, I don't see Israel refusing to recognize Islamic states. The refusal to be recognized as a Jewish state in such an environment goes beyond "racism cuts both ways." Israel has to exist as a Jewish state refused to be recognized as such among Islamic Arab states that are recognized as such. To say "racism cuts both ways" is to ignore this added reality that Israel must survive in. There is a larger prevalence of the belief that 'infidels' should be eliminated/not tolerated within Islam right now than there is within other religions, especially in the Middle East - even as Israel is not calling for the elimination of Muslims/Islamic states. To ignore that reality is to ignore a real part of the problem as it exists.

Theres nothing exotic or unique about this conflict. Its a garden variety dust-up over dirt and water. Both sides think its theirs... and Israelis dont recognize Palestines right to a state any more than Palestine recognizes Israels.

Again. I was clearly referring to the refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. That has absolutely nothing to do with "dirt and water."

Edited July 2, 2011 by American Woman

[BC_chick]

If there is no anti-antisemitism involved in the conflict, how do you explain the refusal of the PLO and Hamas to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?

Land-based conflicts are usually between differing religions and/or ethnicities, I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm simply saying that the root of the conflict is land, not anti-semitism as DOP et al would like to have us believe.

If this was just about Arab anti-semitism as he is suggesting, how could we explain the dozens of other examples in history where non-Arabs also fought violently for their land?

[Guest American Woman]

Land-based conflicts are usually between differing religions and/or ethnicities, I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm simply saying that the root of the conflict is land, not anti-semitism as DOP et al would like to have us believe.

So I'll ask again - why does the PLO and Hamas refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What does that have to do with land?

[BC_chick]

They are not accepting the Jewish state of Israel for the obvious reason that they are Muslim and this is a *land-based* conflict between people of differing religions.

You keep repeating your question all you want - it still won't make this *land-based* conflict a religious one.

Pay close attention to those astericks because (for the third or fourth time) that is the point I'm making.

[Guest American Woman]

They are not accepting the Jewish state of Israel for the obvious reason that they are Muslim and this is a *land-based* conflict between people of differing religions.

You keep repeating your question all you want - it still won't make this *land-based* conflict a religious one.

Pay close attention to those astericks because (for the third or fourth time) that is the point I'm making.

And for just as many times, I'm going to ask you why they will recognize the state of Israel, but not as a JEWISH state. Pay close attention to the CAPS because that's the key word in the question I am asking. You can keep repeating what *doesn't* address my question all you want, but all it tells me is that you *can't* answer it. You keep trying to make it all about a *land based* conflict "between people of differing religions," but it goes *beyond that* with the refusal of the PLO and Hamas to recognize Israel as a JEWISH state - as Israel doesn't refuse to recognize Islamic states. Again. What does Israel being JEWISH have to do with LAND? If it's all about LAND, why the refusal to recognize Israel as JEWISH?

(I hope you found the CAPS and the asterisks as helpful as I found your asterisks.)

[BC_chick]

I did answer you. Because they're Muslim and they are in a in a conflict with Jewish people *over the same piece of land* (which the Jewish side claims is Jewish land).

Look, I don't know how many times we should go on repeating ourselves - just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to say. It's obvious you think you have a point.

Edited July 2, 2011 by BC_chick

[Oleg Bach]

They are not accepting the Jewish state of Israel for the obvious reason that they are Muslim and this is a *land-based* conflict between people of differing religions.

You keep repeating your question all you want - it still won't make this *land-based* conflict a religious one.

Pay close attention to those astericks because (for the third or fourth time) that is the point I'm making.

We are in a modern era - an era of spreading world wide secularism. People give to much credence to religous affiliation. All we are talking about as for Muslims and Jews is that they are affiliated groups. There is very little to do with spirituality or traditional religon here. Muslims are usually not driven by religious doctrine. No do most Jews really follow the precepts of Judaism. It's about money - about resourses (land) about the quality and comfort of human life. The would should stop looking at Muslims and Jews as religous fanatics...they are just like everyone in the world - Materialist who want a better and easier life. The fight for only that reason.

[Oleg Bach]

Palistinians want what Isreal has and Israel does not want to share with anyone but family. That's the crux of it all. Perhaps Jews are racists and consider the Palistinians lower creatures that should not be fed...and for that the Palistinians resent that fact that Israel is not a self supported nation - they are under the patronage of millions around the world - and billions are sent their way...where as Palistine is abandoned by the western world and their Arab counterpars. Why should one live in comfort and the other in poverty...It appears that there will be Jewish expansionism into Palistinian territory - it will be incrimental and in slow motion....It is a type of long term well thought out sinister genocide...toss a loaf of bread over the wall for God's sake...but it seems that obviously God is not involved here on either side.

[DogOnPorch]

And the one-trick pony strikes again. Not only are Arabs 'anti-semites' for fighting for their land, they're 'bastards' for conquering other land too.

No other race/people have ever conquered land or fought for their exising land. Of course not, it's just Muslims who do things like that.

Break out the violins and cry Israel a river all you want, but I'm sorry, fighting for land has being going on since the dawn of humanity and it has nothing to do with being Muslim or Christian or Jewish.

Excellent...then we agree. No do-overs in war...period.

Edited July 2, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[jbg]

I did answer you. Because they're Muslim and they are in a in a conflict with Jewish people *over the same piece of land* (which the Jewish side claims is Jewish land).

There are lots of Muslim countries which allow Jews no liberty, and only one Jewish country, which allows the resident Muslims almost complete liberty,.

[Oleg Bach]

There are lots of Muslim countries which allow Jews no liberty, and only one Jewish country, which allows the resident Muslims almost complete liberty,.

STRANGE....So very strange. Sometimes I feel like I am from another world and just visiting - it astounds me how back ward the human race is...it's as if they were invented yesterday and need time to figure things out...but people have been around for a million years and seemingly have learned nothing. It is one of my lifes greatest disappointments - to finally understand the severe limitations of humanity.