Postal strike and Air Canada stike

[Wilber]

You know that I'm talking about security and property costs. US airports, private corporations, are exempted from paying many taxes, and so the general citizenry is on the hook. I'm not generally in Cavour of that kind of thing. Americans have a huge tax hole that they can't afford. We don't, and so quite frankly, I'm not in a hurry to in any way follow their lead. We have a modern democracy, and we need to pay for it.

You are somewhat selective in what transportation we have to pay for however. We don't treat our transportation as integrated systems. Few North American airports have rail links from their airport. YVR is one that does but we subsidize the hell out of Skytrain yet say the airport has to pay its own way. Not only that but we charge a $5 surcharge on Skytrain fares originating at the airport. It's not just what their government does. I can spend a night in a SEATAC area hotel and leave my car in their lot for a week for less than I can park it at YVR for a week. Including GST, parking taxes at YVR amount to 33%. Canada's airports paid $260 million in rents to the federal government in 2009. It is probably more than that now. As AC is the biggest single operator in the country, the largest portion of that came from it.

Bottom line is our airports are not competitive which means huge amounts of money leaving the country to use US airports.

Wait and see how self sufficient our airports are if they lose their biggest captive revenue source.

[TimG]

Bottom line is our airports are not competitive which means huge amounts of money leaving the country to use US airports.

The US government is drowning in debt because they spend too much and tax too little. We should wait and see what the landscape looks like after the US government starts getting serious about reducing the gap between spending and income.

[Topaz]

Last night, I turn on C-PAC and there Goldhawk was talking about pensions and at one point he said, why are people trying to bring down workers pensions and wages and why not bring them UP!! Why shouldn't ALL works have the same retirement plans as the the MP's? The MP's have the BEST pension retirement plan than the Fed. workers. If the Feds are going to change the pensions for new hires with the postal workers, than that should go for everyone that works on Parliament Hill, including the MP's.

[TimG]

Why shouldn't ALL works have the same retirement plans as the the MP's?

Because MP plans extended beyond the tiny number of MPs are not affordable by stretch of the imagination.

If the Feds are going to change the pensions for new hires with the postal workers, than that should go for everyone that works on Parliament Hill, including the MP's.

Management gets paid better than worker. Those are the facts of life. I don't particularily like the excesses that many managers go to today but the proper avenue for reform is in the shareholders meetings.

[Wilber]

The US government is drowning in debt because they spend too much and tax too little. We should wait and see what the landscape looks like after the US government starts getting serious about reducing the gap between spending and income.

It doesn't matter, you are trying to tell me how our business's need to be competitive and how their employees are preventing that but maintain it is OK for government to do the same thing. Make up your mind.

Their airlines are doing very well because of our governments, that is a plus for their economy and a drain on ours.

How long do you plan on waiting by the way?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Wilber

[Smallc]

The US government is drowning in debt because they spend too much and tax too little. We should wait and see what the landscape looks like after the US government starts getting serious about reducing the gap between spending and income.

Bingo.

[bush_cheney2004]

The US government is drowning in debt because they spend too much and tax too little. We should wait and see what the landscape looks like after the US government starts getting serious about reducing the gap between spending and income.

How would this impact the situation in Canada? How long are you willing to wait?

[TimG]

How would this impact the situation in Canada? How long are you willing to wait?

My point is you don't try to keep up with your neighbor when your neighbor is driving off a cliff. If that means that a certain amount of traffic crosses the border then so be it.

[TimG]

It doesn't matter, you are trying to tell me how our business's need to be competitive and how their employees are preventing that but maintain it is OK for government to do the same thing. Make up your mind.

Governments need revenue. If they dont get it from the airlines they will get it from somewhere else. What taxes do you think should be raised to make up for the lost revenue from airports?

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is you don't try to keep up with your neighbor when your neighbor is driving off a cliff. If that means that a certain amount of traffic crosses the border then so be it.

I agree.....the US should not follow Canada off the cliff!

[Topaz]

Listening to a radio talk, a woman working for the Post Office said they make $20 hrly after 35 years. WOW! I, also, didn't realize that the part of Canada Post was sold off and that postal worker don't think they are government workers. They also said more workers get hurt than the public realizes also. I think the the "back to work" agenda the Tories are getting for the workers will come back and bite in the rear down the road. I wonder how many of them voted Tory?? It was also brought up that the word "union" is becoming a dirty word and most non-union worker think that if they don't have the benefits, why should union workers. Most unions are there for their membership but they also support non-union workers.

[Keepitsimple]

Listening to a radio talk, a woman working for the Post Office said they make $20 hrly after 35 years. WOW! I, also, didn't realize that the part of Canada Post was sold off and that postal worker don't think they are government workers. They also said more workers get hurt than the public realizes also. I think the the "back to work" agenda the Tories are getting for the workers will come back and bite in the rear down the road. I wonder how many of them voted Tory?? It was also brought up that the word "union" is becoming a dirty word and most non-union worker think that if they don't have the benefits, why should union workers. Most unions are there for their membership but they also support non-union workers.

That's over $40K a year with full benefits and a pension. All that's required of a postal worker is diligence and a bit of pride in doing a job well. You don't need any special education nor is there a need to constantly learn and grow in your job. It's a worthy job but just about anyone can do it. For the regular "line" positions, there is no reason for a constant increase in pay other than keeping up with the cost of inflation. The job is the job. If the person doesn't want it, someone else will do it.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[mentalfloss]

That's over $40K a year with full benefits and a pension. All that's required of a postal worker is diligence and a bit of pride in doing a job well. You don't need any special education nor is there a need to constantly learn and grow in your job. It's a worthy job but just about anyone can do it. For the regular "line" positions, there is no reason for a constant increase in pay other than keeping up with the cost of inflation. The job is the job. If the person doesn't want it, someone else will do it.

Please.

Paper pushers (myself included) make more within the first 5 years of employment.

Getting paid more to surf the forums 5 out of the 8 hours I'm here is pretty damn sweet. Reaching 40K after 35 years of dedicated employment is peanuts by comparison.

Edited June 21, 2011 by mentalfloss

[cybercoma]

For the regular "line" positions, there is no reason for a constant increase in pay other than keeping up with the cost of inflation.

Then you're ok with 2% per year, since that's the number the Bank of Canada tries to float inflation around? In that case, you agree that Canada Post's offer was a cut in salary and the federal government's proposal is an even deeper cut.

[M.Dancer]

That's over $40K a year with full benefits and a pension. All that's required of a postal worker is diligence and a bit of pride in doing a job well. You don't need any special education nor is there a need to constantly learn and grow in your job. It's a worthy job but just about anyone can do it. For the regular "line" positions, there is no reason for a constant increase in pay other than keeping up with the cost of inflation. The job is the job. If the person doesn't want it, someone else will do it.

CSRs at Canada Post make 60K a year. Think about it. Canada Post. Customer Service....

[cybercoma]

$60k/year. Really? How do you know this?

[M.Dancer]

$60k/year. Really? How do you know this?

Job postings.

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Canada_Post_Corporation/Salary

[CPCFTW]

Please.

Paper pushers (myself included) make more within the first 5 years of employment.

Getting paid more to surf the forums 5 out of the 8 hours I'm here is pretty damn sweet. Reaching 40K after 35 years of dedicated employment is peanuts by comparison.

So maybe you're overpaid too?

[CPCFTW]

Then you're ok with 2% per year, since that's the number the Bank of Canada tries to float inflation around? In that case, you agree that Canada Post's offer was a cut in salary and the federal government's proposal is an even deeper cut.

Who ever tried to claim we weren't trying to make cuts?

The union wants new hires to START at $24/hr (ie. >45k) with a DB pension...

[cybercoma]

Job postings.

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Canada_Post_Corporation/Salary

CSRs at Canada Post also make half of that. You can't take the absolute top of the payscale and say that all CSRs make $60k/year, just like I'm not going to sit here and claim they all make $30k/year. It would be interesting to see the frequency distributions over that pay band though.

[Wilber]

Governments need revenue. If they dont get it from the airlines they will get it from somewhere else. What taxes do you think should be raised to make up for the lost revenue from airports?

The federal government has downloaded all of its costs, ATC, security, you name it. It charges hundreds of millions in rent for the land airports sit on. Airport authorities build their Taj Mahal airports (any idea how many millions in art work went into YVR? One way or another it had to come off the bottom line of Canada's airlines) and charge whatever taxes and fees they see fit and airlines just have to pay with no control over how the infrastructure is run or its costs. The result is the government's part of the ticket continues to get larger while the airline's gets smaller. How long do you think this is sustainable? Airlines in particular are limited in the costs they can pass along without destroying their own market. Without airlines, airports are nothing more than empty buildings with giant parking lots.

This is the very thing you accuse the employees of but if the employees just give enough so everyone else can continue to take, everything will be fine.

To give our provincial government a little credit, at least they have gained some sort of clue. They tax domestic and international flights differently because they know our cost structure drives business south. In one case at least, they even do it on a provincial level. If you fly from Vancouver to Prince George, there is carbon tax on the fuel. If you fly from Vancouver to Calgary, there isn't. Go figure.

To answer your question, perhaps they could try driving your business into the ground with fees and taxes. They need the revenue you know.

On edit: From YVR's own website. Without viable airlines, all of those numbers would be zero

YVR Creates Jobs

 Ongoing operations at YVR support 23,614 direct jobs.

 A daily international flight creates about 186 person-years of direct employment and an all-cargo flight creates 73 person-years of direct employment.

 For every direct job at YVR, there are 2.5 more indirect and induced jobs.

 Airport employees earn annual wages higher than the provincial average.

 YVR employs more people than B.C.’s forest industry.

YVR is an Economic Engine

 People employed at YVR receive $1.0 billion in annual wages.

 YVR generates $5.3 billion in total GDP and $11.7 billion in total economic output into the Canadian economy.

YVR Contributes to Government Revenues

 Government revenues from YVR total $608 million annually to the federal and provincial governments, the City of Richmond and TransLink.

 8.8% of the City of Richmond’s tax revenue in 2009 was attributable to YVR’s operations.

YVR Builds Opportunities

 In 2009, construction projects at YVR generated 953 person-years of direct employment, $44.1 million in direct wages and $83.6 million in direct GDP.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Wilber

[Wilber]

CSRs at Canada Post make 60K a year. Think about it. Canada Post. Customer Service....

Maybe, if you can find a post office.

[William Ashley]

Well I personally don't believe in governmental intervention in private business matters.

(Don't the conservatives want to privatize Canada post - how does it fair that they force labour on people?

True their is a labour code but isn't that code there to insure fair dealings and fair employment conditions? Why does the government need to introduce a seperate bill? Shouldn't it be applicable into the "fair" labour code - oh yes that is tabled to be changed also, however I must say I 100% do not support the governments interferance in private labour matters. If Canada Post was so important it would be intergrated in the government not a crown corporation. It would be an essential service that was part of the military or national police.

I think this meddling really needs to put in perspective the issue that Canada Post as an Agency isn't given the role or recognition it deserves.

Simply putting people back to work (in forced labour) is problematic. The real issues need to be addressed not putting band aides on wounds.

From all said postal workers are under "worse" conditions of work and getting less for it? Was the deal too good before? "Gasp" the failure is here because of government subsidy to a private agency (crown corporation)- or if it is turning a profit what is the deal?

Pay higher postal rates? What about stamp taxes, or is tea to follow?

I'm very nuetral in regard to labour issues as I think it is a private matter, people should be able to hirer or fire who they'd like and people should be able to act as they like and face any consequences there of. As long as it is legal (with reasonable laws established in a "FREE AND FAIR" society.

Unfortunately Canada is subject to fascist rule right now of a minority of the population - and one that wants to infringe on freedom and fairness in soceity, so it seems that within the system there is a failure. Postal workers of course have the option to quit or start their own postal company.

If I were them just starting a new postal company or putting in for work with rival agencies is the way.

It isn't an absolute monopoly. The bottom line is people have the CHOICE to work for someone or not, we have no reason to accept slavery, people have the choice.

The bottom line is that or something else.

I'm still very much neutral in the Canada Post strike - the government should be to it isn't, so its the government that is the bad guy here.

I think there may be more to it though - such as the installation of new security equipment at Canada Post facilities (maybe camera's etc.. if they don't already exist) who knows. We all know the systems were being updated.

There is more to it, all in all though, the corporation is cheaping out on sorting equipment, it is poorly managed, imo, and not technologically as innovative as it could be. Many of the issues where complaints existed on labour issues could have been resolved by technological upgrading.

The corporation could be doing better.

The government if it really wanted to do things fairly would just inflate the economy instead they are trying to take money from specific groups, that isn't fair.

The government is edging in on the labour code while legistlating crown corporations and private corporations, that is a major interferance. If it wanted to fairly leverage in the crown corporation it would do so through their board representation, not make new law to force labour, that is wrong in a free society and unconstitutional.

The labour code and government services is what needs to be addressed, if the government wants to nationalize canada post it should be transparent not veiled and by corrupt legal practice.

Of course the objective of privatization of Canada Post may be contrary to the governments actions to effectively nationalize it by forcing employment conditions on a private company.

Edited June 21, 2011 by William Ashley

[Topaz]

People have to remember, that if employers in Canada keep taking away from employees and leaving them with nothing by the end of their working years, those same people are going to see their taxes go up to support them on social programs. So its better all around to have the employees work for their retirement knowing they have a good pension and not worried about be homeless. If its good enough for our MPP's and MP's than its good enough for the all the workers in this country.

[cybercoma]

People also need to have security to, you know, buy the stuff they're making. Fordist compromise and all that. Too bad the Fordist compromise has been broken, but labour has been declawed.