Postal strike and Air Canada stike

[Wilber]

So, Calin Rovinescu won a lottery.

Wilber, should we abolish lotteries? Would that make Canada more fair? Would it improve the Canadian economy?

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IMV, we face two problems. One immediate, and the other long term.

First, many people expect to receive something in the future, sometimes based on a State guarantee, but it's obvious even now that they won't receive it. In short, many people will not receive the CPP/state pension that they expect.

Second, civilized democracies choose leaders in random fashion. IOW, we ask a person chosen randomly to solve our collective problems. Sadly, we have not found a better way to choose leaders - from CEOs to PMs.

The problem Air Canada employees faced is seeing their company used as a private piggy bank for vulture funds and executives while they were expected to pay for it. They are rightly pissed.

Yes there are long term problems but the employees are not responsible for a lot of what lead up to the current ones. Yes, there will have to be changes to ensure sustainablity but unfortunately the company has squandered whatever trust the employees may have had in its management and if the company is wondering why their employees are feeling fiesty, they need look no farther than in their own mirror. More than anyone, management bears responsiblity for making this process more difficult. I have seen more than a few companies go broke during my career and it has always been bad management that has been responsible. I've worked for quite a few companies and for the most part in all of them, people just want to do a good job and be proud of the company they work for. The same could not be said for all of their management.

[Wilber]

Seriously? Your argument has come to this?

So companies should go bankrupt unless they have a leader who leads by example?

Execs are paid handsomely for their experience and education, and to make the tough decisions and be the bad guy to all the hippies out there.

People should work harder and maybe one day they'll be at the top raking in 7 figures... Or just join a union and whine that someone who worked harder than them gets paid more than them and therefore the government should guarantee their pensions and give them money and rainbows and gumdrops.

Companies who put no value on their employees deserve to go bankrupt and generaly do. Invariably, they end up getting what they pay for.

You must come from the all chiefs and no indians school.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Wilber

[August1991]

The problem Air Canada employees faced is seeing their company used as a private piggy bank for vulture funds and executives while they were expected to pay for it. They are rightly pissed.

So, the problem Canadians face is too many lotteries. Lotteries take money from many people and give it to a few people.

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Wilber says, "Abolish lotteries and Canada will be rich."

Wilber, you really miss the point.

Edited June 16, 2011 by August1991

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Nurses and teachers, for example, across Canada have been promised as State employees good pensions. They expect to retire in their mid-50s (if they haven't already) and expect to receive about 70% of their last salary, indexed, until they die.

To maintain this promise, future governments will have to tax younger people or other older, retired people. Is that fair? Do you think future politicians will keep this promise?

To boot, the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan is making younger teachers pay more for less to support those who are retired already. In Ontario, it is illegal to revise a pension once being received. All current retired teachers did not pay enough into the plan. New teachers face partial indexing and paying more into the plan, to support them.

[Shwa]

Wow! Such a great thread...which will prevail in the mighty struggle? The benevolent Canadian "social contract" and labor rights, or spiteful Canadian miserliness and fiscal responsibility? I'm betting on the latter!

LOFL! Such insight!

[Shwa]

People should work harder and maybe one day they'll be at the top raking in 7 figures... Or just join a union and whine that someone who worked harder than them gets paid more than them and therefore the government should guarantee their pensions and give them money and rainbows and gumdrops.

One thing that has piqued my interest, especially with two strikes and the threat of two pieces of back-to-work legislation in response is that I think Prime Minister Harper is playing with the tempest in the tea pot. He may regret playing the legislative card in the long run.

Collective bargaining is a right, not a privilege to be bestowed in good times and when everyone is OK with it. All contracts were legally negotiated and agreed upon, but now a sudden change in the rules. Why so?

The biggest tempest however, is organized labour itself and it can quickly spread from one small job action here and there, to an organized general strike across the country. Or... could it?

Back in the day, when labour had some clout, there was all sorts of cooperation between unions and labour councils, but nary a peep these days. However, with the 'labour' party sitting in Official Opposition, there is a focal point for unions to rally around. And not just 'unions,' but 'workers' everywhere.

[TimG]

I think. The government has the right to have their say on the postal but Air Canada, is a private company now, and the Toires have told other workers from private companies that faced unfair talks, that they don't get involved between the union and the Company. Really?

Anyone looking at the distance between the unions and management in these disputes will realize that binding arbitration is the only way to come to a resolution. I don't see the point of letting the strikes go on and costing a lot of innocent third parties a lot of money only to end up with the same resolution several months from now.

[Wilber]

So, the problem Canadians face is too many lotteries. Lotteries take money from many people and give it to a few people.

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Wilber says, "Abolish lotteries and Canada will be rich."

Wilber, you really miss the point.

You are quite right. I fail to see how winning a lottery qualifies one to do anything, let alone command instant respect and trust.

[cybercoma]

People should work harder and maybe one day they'll be at the top raking in 7 figures...

Total myth. How hard one works has no correlation whatsoever to the amount of money they make.

[M.Dancer]

Total myth. How hard one works has no correlation whatsoever to the amount of money they make.

:lol:

[Handsome Rob]

From another topic on this forum

In fact, Air Canada's executive compensation has increased and average of 115% since the company came out of bankruptcy protection.

As part of coming out of CCAA in 2003, Air Canada employees took and average 20% haircut in wages and benefits. They have had no increases since and are now in the process of trying not to lose more. After CCAA, the new holding company for Air Canada, ACE Aviation proceeded with what may be the biggest corporate rape in Canadian history. They sold off billions in some of the most profitable Air Canada assets and distributed the proceeds to ACE shareholders, Deutsche Bank and Cerberus Corp were two of the biggest corporate recipients with Robert Milton the CEO of ACE and former CEO of Air Canada being one of the largest individual benefactors. The components sold off included Aeroplan, Jazz and the heavy maintenance division, with Air Canada as the cash cow, bound to keep those operations running profitably. Jazz became and income trust paying out around 16% to its share holders. It is now held by Chorus Aviation which is paying a dividend of over 11%. As the great majority of Jazz business comes from Air Canada, most of that 16% and 11% came out of Air Canada's bottom line instead of being added to it.

When all this was going on, the employees protested and were told that Air Canada was a private company and government couldn't interfere. Now the shoe is on the other foot and apparently they can. With Air Canada holding 60% of the domestic and most of the Canadian carrier international market, the government is probably afraid of losing their cash cow which makes Canada's airports so profitable, not to mention the free business class tickets MP's get to travel from their constituencies to Ottawa.

This might be the fiscal responsibility BC was referring to.

I agree in full, and you can't talk about Calin without getting into Montie Brewer or worse, Robert Milton and the corporate raping they put AC through.

But none of that makes defined benefit pensions reasonable for unskilled labor working at an airline on life support that just moved away from penny stock, in an industry that is racing to see who can match Walmart the quickest.

[Handsome Rob]

Total myth. How hard one works has no correlation whatsoever to the amount of money they make.

It's inverse. [/sarcasm]

[Wilber]

I agree in full, and you can't talk about Calin without getting into Montie Brewer or worse, Robert Milton and the corporate raping they put AC through.

But none of that makes defined benefit pensions reasonable for unskilled labor working at an airline on life support that just moved away from penny stock, in an industry that is racing to see who can match Walmart the quickest.

I don't know the state of CAW's pension plan funding and I guess unskilled labour is a relative term. Skill at tactfully dealing with irate people because of something that I had absolutely no control over is not a skill that I can claim, nor are the language skills that many of them have.

I actually think Calin is a smart guy and the best CEO they have had for some time, but that is faint praise considering his predecessors. Problem is, both he and the employees have a mountain of baggage between them, left by a bunch of corporate carpet baggers who have either left the building or are still trying to leave with as much as they can carry.

Building trust in this case has to come from the top down, you can't buy it or impose it. You can't force yourself to trust someone, either you do or you don't. You may find yourself in a position where you have to take someone at their word but that doesn't mean you trust them and try to build a good business or any other type of relationship with someone who doesn't trust you.

If the HST fails in BC's referendum, it likely won't be because of the merits of the tax, but because enoungh people just don't trust the government trying to sell it.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Wilber

[Handsome Rob]

Unskilled labor means anybody can be pulled in off the street and trained to do it in a manner of weeks. I don't begrudge them a penny with the roller coaster they've been through, and the crap they put up with on a daily basis, but it's still unskilled labor.

[RNG]

In another related thread, I brought up the fact that since airlines are a very capital intensive industry (an A-320 costs more than $1.95) they tend to carry a large debt load. Most economists know that when, and hopefully it will be soon, the economy starts improving, all the stimulus spending is going to cause bad inflationary pressure, so the BoC will hammer up interest rates. Thus, any forward thinking executive is going to be doing everything in their power to lower debt loads.

[Wilber]

In another related thread, I brought up the fact that since airlines are a very capital intensive industry (an A-320 costs more than $1.95) they tend to carry a large debt load. Most economists know that when, and hopefully it will be soon, the economy starts improving, all the stimulus spending is going to cause bad inflationary pressure, so the BoC will hammer up interest rates. Thus, any forward thinking executive is going to be doing everything in their power to lower debt loads.

On the other hand, higher interest rates will also serve to erase the pension deficits. Many of the plans were near or fully funded before the 08 crash.

[Handsome Rob]

In another related thread, I brought up the fact that since airlines are a very capital intensive industry (an A-320 costs more than $1.95) they tend to carry a large debt load. Most economists know that when, and hopefully it will be soon, the economy starts improving, all the stimulus spending is going to cause bad inflationary pressure, so the BoC will hammer up interest rates. Thus, any forward thinking executive is going to be doing everything in their power to lower debt loads.

Air Canada was as of late, so short on liquid cash, 773's were rolling out of the factory, being repainted, and promptly re-leased to raise money.

[Bonam]

Total myth. How hard one works has no correlation whatsoever to the amount of money they make.

Umm, what? Working hard is of course no guarantee of making a lot, for example if one works hard at a dead end job. Or if one is naturally inept and everything they try just fails. And it is certainly possible to end up with a lot of money without working hard (lucking out in the lottery or stock market, inheriting, etc). But by and large, people who start businesses that succeed work their asses off. Executives, managers, etc, all have significant responsibility on them, which they must work hard to fulfill. Likewise, professionals work hard to get their degrees and continue to work challenging jobs for most of their lives. Even athletes, celebrities, politicians, etc, all work hard to get where they are, and also pay the cost of having their lives on public display.

[RNG]

Umm, what? Working hard is of course no guarantee of making a lot, for example if one works hard at a dead end job. Or if one is naturally inept and everything they try just fails. And it is certainly possible to end up with a lot of money without working hard (lucking out in the lottery or stock market, inheriting, etc). But by and large, people who start businesses that succeed work their asses off. Executives, managers, etc, all have significant responsibility on them, which they must work hard to fulfill. Likewise, professionals work hard to get their degrees and continue to work challenging jobs for most of their lives. Even athletes, celebrities, politicians, etc, all work hard to get where they are, and also pay the cost of having their lives on public display.

I would like to make the point that most who "made it" in the stock market were either smart, or were smart enough to use a smart investment advisor. That is usually not luck.

[Evening Star]

I would like to make the point that most who "made it" in the stock market were either smart, or were smart enough to use a smart investment advisor. That is usually not luck.

It's not necessarily hard work either, though.

[RNG]

It's not necessarily hard work either, though.

I have done both, and hard thinking is harder than hard digging of ditches.

[punked]

I would like to make the point that most who "made it" in the stock market were either smart, or were smart enough to use a smart investment advisor. That is usually not luck.

However their were just as many smart people and people who used smart investment advisors who lost their shirts as well. So in that pool of people you had to be a lucky one to make it. So luck was part of the equation.

[Evening Star]

I have done both, and hard thinking is harder than hard digging of ditches.

What about paying for a "smart investment advisor"? Is that hard work on the part of the investor?

Edited June 16, 2011 by Evening Star

[RNG]

What about paying for a "smart investment advisor"? Is that hard work on the part of the investor?

Finding the right one, and then making sure he isn't screwing you is.

[CPCFTW]

However their were just as many smart people and people who used smart investment advisors who lost their shirts as well. So in that pool of people you had to be a lucky one to make it. So luck was part of the equation.

What about paying for a "smart investment advisor"? Is that hard work on the part of the investor?

The sad thing is you guys actually believe this stuff. Yup they were just working at McDonalds and invested their $500 savings and got lucky by finding an investment advisor that generated a 100000% return and now they are multi-millionaires. Those damn lucky elite bastards trying to keep the rest of us down!!

Anyone who got wealthy from the stock market had to work hard to earn the money to invest.

Edited June 17, 2011 by CPCFTW