WIP Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 I don't check in on these threads too often, so I don't know if this has been mentioned in the 175 previous comments, but, after looking at a map on TV last night of West Bank settlements and Palestinian zones, the thought came to mind that this looks exactly like the isolated Bantustans that the Apartheid regime in South Africa tried to create in the final years of Apartheid to prevent the eventual collapse. Is this really what the purpose of the Jewish settlements is for on the West Bank? One difference between present day Israel and 1980's South Africa, is that they eventually ran out of friends as even Reagan and Thatcher were forced to cut off military and financial assistance and downgrade their relationship. Present day America (and Canada) looks like we're going over the cliff with Israel if worse comes to worse! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 ....One difference between present day Israel and 1980's South Africa, is that they eventually ran out of friends as even Reagan and Thatcher were forced to cut off military and financial assistance and downgrade their relationship. Present day America (and Canada) looks like we're going over the cliff with Israel if worse comes to worse! Reagan and Thatcher were not "forced" to do any such thing....the Cold War reasons for supporting the South African regime changed. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eCitizen Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 I don't check in on these threads too often, so I don't know if this has been mentioned in the 175 previous comments, but, after looking at a map on TV last night of West Bank settlements and Palestinian zones, the thought came to mind that this looks exactly like the isolated Bantustans that the Apartheid regime in South Africa tried to create in the final years of Apartheid to prevent the eventual collapse. Is this really what the purpose of the Jewish settlements is for on the West Bank? One difference between present day Israel and 1980's South Africa, is that they eventually ran out of friends as even Reagan and Thatcher were forced to cut off military and financial assistance and downgrade their relationship. Present day America (and Canada) looks like we're going over the cliff with Israel if worse comes to worse! Canada has negotiated land settlements. More needs to be done, but there has been serious acknowledgment of the debt owing and there is a process in place. There are direct discussions, unlike Israel, which continues to try to negotiate over the heads of the Palestinians with any major power who is willing to pour money into zionism. Quote
eCitizen Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 Reagan and Thatcher were not "forced" to do any such thing....the Cold War reasons for supporting the South African regime changed. Do you have any evidence of support for South Africa from the Eastern Bloc? I'd love to see it. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 Do you have any evidence of support for South Africa from the Eastern Bloc? I'd love to see it. Not sure what you mean...Reagan's Cold War reasons for supporting South Africa until the mid 1980's are well documented. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Sorry I don't walk and talk like Bob or JBG. Our noses are probably different as well.Why the continuing need for personal insults? However we all are circumsized. I trust that is uniform enough for your need to lump us in one category. I have no idea whether we are all the same size. I have no intention of measuring Bob or JBG. T.M.I. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Oleg Bach Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Islam is the oldest corporation on earth. They are clashing with the mulit-nationals...Islam is not really a reglion - if it were we would see signs of that. Quote
jbg Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Islam is the oldest corporation on earth. They are clashing with the mulit-nationals...Islam is not really a reglion - if it were we would see signs of that. Oleg, normally I consider your posts jibberish. In this case we agree. I am reading Jefferson's War about the Barbary Coast Pirates. They used Jihad as the justification for plunder of shipping and enslavement of the crews. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Islam is the oldest corporation on earth. They are clashing with the mulit-nationals...Islam is not really a reglion - if it were we would see signs of that. I dunno... seems like a religion to me. Belief a bogus diety : CHECK! False Prophet : CHECK! Radical and violent behavior : CHECK! Treat women and homosexuals like shit : CHECK! Retarded and prudish sexual repression : CHECK! Yup! Its a religion! Pretty much the same as the other ones, just a century or so behind. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Yup! Its a religion! Pretty much the same as the other ones, just a century or so behind. I think I'd stress the 'or so' part a bit more. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
WIP Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Reagan and Thatcher were not "forced" to do any such thing....the Cold War reasons for supporting the South African regime changed. Nope! I knew you were just pulling that one out of your ass since I had a vague recollection of the chronology of events at the time, since both were pushing a policy with the South African Government called "Constructive Engagement," which apparently collapsed after Congress overrode a presidential veto (when's the last time that happened?): In October 1986, the United States Congress overrode President Reagan's veto of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act (the Senate vote was 78 to 21, the House vote was 313 to 83), despite objections by conservative Representatives such as Dick Cheney, who noted that Nelson Mandela was the head of an organization that the State Department had deemed "terrorist".[13] In the week leading up to the vote, President Reagan appealed to members of the Republican Party for support, but as Senator Lowell P. Weicker, Jr. would state, "For this moment, at least, the President has become an irrelevancy to the ideals, heartfelt and spoken, of America."[14] The legislation, which banned all new U.S. trade and investment in South Africa, also refused South African Airways flights from landing at U.S. airports. This legislation was seen as a catalyst for similar sanctions in Europe and Japan, and signalled the end of the constructive engagement policy. [edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_engagement It's uncanny how Dick Cheney's name pops up every time there is a dirty, slimy story from the past is mentioned. Edited June 20, 2011 by WIP Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Canada has negotiated land settlements. More needs to be done, but there has been serious acknowledgment of the debt owing and there is a process in place. There are direct discussions, unlike Israel, which continues to try to negotiate over the heads of the Palestinians with any major power who is willing to pour money into zionism. If negotiations are about a setup of tiny, isolated Palestinian enclaves on the West Bank separated by Jewish-only roads and surrounded by guard posts, what the hell is the point of having negotiations in the first place? It tells me that there is no such thing as a "Two State Solution" even in theory....let alone in practice. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
GostHacked Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 If negotiations are about a setup of tiny, isolated Palestinian enclaves on the West Bank separated by Jewish-only roads and surrounded by guard posts, what the hell is the point of having negotiations in the first place? It tells me that there is no such thing as a "Two State Solution" even in theory....let alone in practice. That's what I conclude as well. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 That's what I conclude as well. With mobs gathering to chant Al-Mawt Li Israel followed-up by suicide bombers, child killers and rockets, I wouldn't make a deal for a used car with these violent idiots until they purge themselves of their terrorist/fascist elements. Would you? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 With mobs gathering to chant Al-Mawt Li Israel followed-up by suicide bombers, child killers and rockets, I wouldn't make a deal for a used car with these violent idiots until they purge themselves of their terrorist/fascist elements. Would you? So why even talk of deals and talks if one is not interested in it based on their actions? I also can find mobs of Isrealis threatening the local Arabs just outside of their fenced in settlement. Why would you need to build a fence? Protection? Why do you need protection in an illegal settlement built on occupied lands? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 So why even talk of deals and talks if one is not interested in it based on their actions? I also can find mobs of Isrealis threatening the local Arabs just outside of their fenced in settlement. Why would you need to build a fence? Protection? Why do you need protection in an illegal settlement built on occupied lands? Here we go again. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
WIP Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 With mobs gathering to chant Al-Mawt Li Israel followed-up by suicide bombers, child killers and rockets, I wouldn't make a deal for a used car with these violent idiots until they purge themselves of their terrorist/fascist elements. Would you? Then, if negotiations are impossible, say so...I'm old enough to remember when Israeli leaders like Golda Meir said that there was no such thing as a Palestinian...stop the charade, and just build the walled fortress. Netanyahu is not interested in a peaceful resolution, so stop pretending. The Apartheid Government of South Africa kept using the excuse of fighting communism to keep their regime going; the difference today is that most of the West is being guilt-tripped into supporting an Israeli Government that is following a determined policy of ethnic cleansing. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
DogOnPorch Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Then, if negotiations are impossible, say so...I'm old enough to remember when Israeli leaders like Golda Meir said that there was no such thing as a Palestinian...stop the charade, and just build the walled fortress. Netanyahu is not interested in a peaceful resolution, so stop pretending. The Apartheid Government of South Africa kept using the excuse of fighting communism to keep their regime going; the difference today is that most of the West is being guilt-tripped into supporting an Israeli Government that is following a determined policy of ethnic cleansing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg Nuff said re: you. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eCitizen Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 If negotiations are about a setup of tiny, isolated Palestinian enclaves on the West Bank separated by Jewish-only roads and surrounded by guard posts, what the hell is the point of having negotiations in the first place? It tells me that there is no such thing as a "Two State Solution" even in theory....let alone in practice. It is one thing to be quoted out of context, but quite another to be debated out of context. Go back and read the post you are referencing, and the post it responds to. Quote
jbg Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 It's uncanny how Dick Cheney's name pops up every time there is a dirty, slimy story from the past is mentioned. I don't defend apartheid. However, how much better off is the average black African in South Africa or Zimbabwe than under the discriminatory systems? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Nope! I knew you were just pulling that one out of your ass since I had a vague recollection of the chronology of events at the time, since both were pushing a policy with the South African Government called "Constructive Engagement," which apparently collapsed after Congress overrode a presidential veto (when's the last time that happened?): As usual, your vague recollection is a half assed substitute for what really happened. Were you even on solid food yet? Next you will "remember" that Congress stopped Reagan in Central America too. LOL! Edited June 21, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WIP Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 As usual, your vague recollection is a half assed substitute for what really happened. Were you even on solid food yet? Next you will "remember" that Congress stopped Reagan in Central America too. LOL! Difference is that when I checked for info. my recollections coincided with the record, while you got caught with your pants down just making up bullshit. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 I don't defend apartheid. However, how much better off is the average black African in South Africa or Zimbabwe than under the discriminatory systems? That was another of the arguments used to support apartheid. I won't go in to the issues of continued economic colonization and how that affected Black Africa after the end of colonialism, but re: Israel, I'm not pretending to know whether peaceful resolutions are possible in the Middle East, but when I see Israeli troops shooting down unarmed demonstrators in the Golan, I'm thinking that there is not enough difference between Israel and its Arab neighbours for me to jump in on Israel's side...and the fact that our Government has taken the position of unqualified support for Israel is what really bothers me. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Difference is that when I checked for info. my recollections coincided with the record, while you got caught with your pants down just making up bullshit. Your recollection never existed....that's why the Americans invented Google and the Internet...just for you. If you use these gifts to their full potential, you may find out what really happened as a practical matter....even before Reagan (i.e. Carter). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 ...and the fact that our Government has taken the position of unqualified support for Israel is what really bothers me. Your government(s) also "support" the Americans, who provide direct aid to the Israeli "regime". No other country is so closely integrated to the US economy. Does that "bother" you too? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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