Postal Strike Imminent

[Scotty]

Why do you think it's better to live in a country where the government doesn't just print us all a million billion dollars?

Because that won't work and can't work. But there are plenty of countries which treat their workers well, though. So it's not like that's impossible... So why do you seem to think it is?

Edited June 2, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

There is only so much money in an economy to be had, you know.

And we wouldn't want to go bankrupt like those poor Nordic countries, right, or the Germans or Swiss or Austrians. Is that what you're saying?

[Scotty]

Public sector contracts are something where two parties (politicians and unions) argue over how much a third party (the taxpayer) will pay for these wages and benefits. To make matters worse one party (the unions) has the power to get the other party fired. These negotiating terms ensure that the taxpayer will get screwed no matter what.

Government unions have the power to get people fired? Where do you get this from?

[CPCFTW]

Because that won't work and can't work. But there are plenty of countries which treat their workers well, though. So it's not like that's impossible... So why do you seem to think it is?

Because it isn't sustainable. See Greece for an example of what your entitlements gone wild plan causes. Plenty of countries are also mired in horrible debt crises from printing money to sustain their bloated entitlments.

The only difference between my scenario and yours is that mine is unsustainable at time 0, yours is unsustainable 30-50yrs from now when your grandchildren get to pay for your greed.

[Scotty]

What is your alternative then? The conflict of interest in the public sector bargaining process means we must have some other reference point to just the settlements against.

The 'conflict of interest' is entirely the product of your imagination.

[Scotty]

Because it isn't sustainable. See Greece for an example of what your entitlements gone wild plan causes. Plenty of countries are also mired in horrible debt crises from printing money to sustain their bloated entitlments.

Yeah, like the United States, which has weak unions and no mandated vacations. Meanwhile the Nordic countries, Germany and other places where all workers have had mandated 5 or 6 week vacations, unionized or not, for the past forty years, are doing comparatively much better despite having a much more powerful union environment. So it seems whether you balance the books are not is not necessarily closely related to how much you pay your government workers, or what kind of benefits in general your private workers get.

[Smallc]

And we wouldn't want to go bankrupt like those poor Nordic countries, right, or the Germans or Swiss or Austrians. Is that what you're saying?

Why do we have to be like them? We aren't them. As for the nordic countries, we have a different economic model. Theirs is much more social. We have to work within the system that we have.

[Smallc]

Meanwhile the Nordic countries, Germany and other places where all workers have had mandated 5 or 6 week vacations,

I would have a very hard time paying for that. The vacation pay for my employees would be 12% of their normal pay.

[CPCFTW]

Yeah, like the United States, which has weak unions and no mandated vacations. Meanwhile the Nordic countries, Germany and other places where all workers have had mandated 5 or 6 week vacations, unionized or not, for the past forty years, are doing comparatively much better despite having a much more powerful union environment. So it seems whether you balance the books are not is not necessarily closely related to how much you pay your government workers, or what kind of benefits in general your private workers get.

Do you happen to understand why the US's finances are such a wreck? Social security and medicare, plus the defense costs of policing the world. It has nothing to do with their focus on capitalism and everything to do with unrestrained spending (similar to your ideal society). Close to 75% of us expenditures are on the above 3 items plus debt service costs. Cue that Bushcheney guy to tell us to stop talking about his country!

Edited June 2, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Scotty]

Do you happen to understand why the US's finances are such a wreck?

Why yes, I actually do. You see, I remember back to the Clinton days, when economic forecasters were predicting, with those big budget surpluses, how long it would take to pay off the national debt.

Then along came the Republicans, and huge tax cuts for the rich, and huge entitlements for -- corporations. And the rich got richer and richer, and the budget deficits grew year by year.

Here's a news flash for you. The entitlements in Germany and the Nordic countries, in Finland, in Austria, have been WAY more generous than anything the United States ever imagined for many decades now. For that matter, Canadian entitlements are more generous too, and we were having lots of surpluses up until the big recession hit.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

I would have a very hard time paying for that. The vacation pay for my employees would be 12% of their normal pay.

And yet, businesses manage to thrive in Germany, in Switzerland, in Finland and Sweden and Austria, and in many other countries...

[Smallc]

And yet, businesses manage to thrive in Germany, in Switzerland, in Finland and Sweden and Austria, and in many other countries...

Some how, yes, they do. They also thrive here though, so I'm not sure of your point. People aren't exactly struggling here.

[Scotty]

Why do we have to be like them? We aren't them. As for the nordic countries, we have a different economic model. Theirs is much more social. We have to work within the system that we have.

We don't have to be "like" them, but which society do you think would be better for the great mass of people? A society where everyone got decent wages and benefits and vacations, or one where they got as little as possible, worked like dogs till they were barely alive, then ate dog food like American seniors?

[Scotty]

Some how, yes, they do. They also thrive here though, so I'm not sure of your point. People aren't exactly struggling here.

The point is you and others are arguing we should treat workers more miserly, while I'm arguing we can treat workers more generously so everyone has a better life. We know they succeed in many countries. Why shouldn't we look at how they do it and try to emulate them? Wouldn't that be better for most people?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Here's a news flash for you. The entitlements in Germany and the Nordic countries, in Finland, in Austria, have been WAY more generous than anything the United States ever imagined for many decades now. For that matter, Canadian entitlements are more generous too, and we were having lots of surpluses up until the big recession hit.

Actually, Canada nearly went broke....far worse as a percentage of GDP. So Chretien and Martin slashed health care spending for the provinces, tinkered with taxes, and sold the farm to American and other foreign interests.

Between FY 1995 and FY 1998, federal government program expenditure (government spending minus interest payments on the federal debt) decreased from C$123.1 billion to C$111.3 billion, a decrease of C$11.9 billion. Moreover, because Canada’s economy experienced mild inflation during this time, the cut in government spending in real (that is, inflation-adjusted) dollars was much larger. In 2002 Canadian dollars, program expenditures decreased from C$142.44 billion in FY 1995 to C$122.9 billion in FY 1998, a real decrease of approximately C$20 billion.

[Sandy MacNab]

Yeah, like the United States, which has weak unions and no mandated vacations. Meanwhile the Nordic countries, Germany and other places where all workers have had mandated 5 or 6 week vacations, unionized or not, for the past forty years, are doing comparatively much better despite having a much more powerful union environment. So it seems whether you balance the books are not is not necessarily closely related to how much you pay your government workers, or what kind of benefits in general your private workers get.

Maybe their unionized workers are also a helluva lot more productive than in other countries; Canada for instance. Union feather-bedding that goes on here is criminal and a significant drain on the economy.

[CPCFTW]

Feel free to cite the great entitlements of all these nordic countries you wish you lived in and also feel free to include in your analysis the relative sizes of the public sector, tax rates, and the debt/gdp ratios and budget deficits of these countries.

It may be that they have more entitlements but are more heavily taxed on them, or that they have a relatively smaller public sector that delivers more value for the cost, or that these countries are pursuing your unsustainable model of taking on more and more debt, or that these countries have less regulatory impediments to free enterprise, or that they have a comparative advantage over Canada in that they have many markets competing for their goods while Canada is mostly bound to one export market because of logistics costs. Or the lack of economic diversity which can be a problem in Canada with fluctuating exchange rates (ie. Manufacturing industry collapses due to a higher exchange rate, but soaring energy prices ensures that the CAD remains inflated as there is demand for CAD to buy energy exports). Nordic countries don't face this impediment for the most part. It isn't enough to just point at a country where the grass is greener and say "SEEEEEE".

Edited June 3, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Smallc]

The point is you and others are arguing we should treat workers more miserly, while I'm arguing we can treat workers more generously so everyone has a better life. We know they succeed in many countries. Why shouldn't we look at how they do it and try to emulate them?

Because we're succeeding here. Is that so hard for you to accept? I know that I can't afford to pay for six weeks of vacation. One employee takes about three, and the other get vacation pay, and that's about all that I can do. Large corporations probably could afford it, but many small businesses couldn't.

Also, as someone pointed out, the countries you're talking about generally have higher tax rates, some of them much higher. There is a price to be paid for everything.

[Sandy MacNab]

The point is you and others are arguing we should treat workers more miserly, while I'm arguing we can treat workers more generously so everyone has a better life. We know they succeed in many countries. Why shouldn't we look at how they do it and try to emulate them? Wouldn't that be better for most people?

It just might work except for one tiny problem. If it is found that three German unionized workers do the work of five unionized workers in Canada and Canadian governments moved to require the same every union worker in Canada would shit bricks. Riots everywhere.

[bush_cheney2004]

It just might work except for one tiny problem. If it is found that three German unionized workers do the work of five unionized workers in Canada and Canadian governments moved to require the same every union worker in Canada would shit bricks. Riots everywhere.

That's a good point....Canadian worker productivity lags behind in many cases.

[Battletoads]

Why yes, I actually do. You see, I remember back to the Clinton days, when economic forecasters were predicting, with those big budget surpluses, how long it would take to pay off the national debt.

Then along came the Republicans, and huge tax cuts for the rich, and huge entitlements for -- corporations. And the rich got richer and richer, and the budget deficits grew year by year.

Here's a news flash for you. The entitlements in Germany and the Nordic countries, in Finland, in Austria, have been WAY more generous than anything the United States ever imagined for many decades now. For that matter, Canadian entitlements are more generous too, and we were having lots of surpluses up until the big recession hit.

The Cons put us into deficit before the recession hit actually...

[Battletoads]

Because we're succeeding here. Is that so hard for you to accept? I know that I can't afford to pay for six weeks of vacation. One employee takes about three, and the other get vacation pay, and that's about all that I can do. Large corporations probably could afford it, but many small businesses couldn't.

Also, as someone pointed out, the countries you're talking about generally have higher tax rates, some of them much higher. There is a price to be paid for everything.

Succeeding? Everyone but the rich is either falling behind or stagnant...

[Moonlight Graham]

I dont like city bus strikes or Canada Post strikes. IMO they should both be designated as "essential services", forcing these people to work even if they strike.

[TimG]

I dont like city bus strikes or Canada Post strikes. IMO they should both be designated as "essential services", forcing these people to work even if they strike.

The point is Canada Post is not essential any more.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

That's a good point....Canadian worker productivity lags behind in many cases.

Source?