BC Referendum on HST

[August1991]

If I understand properly, voting in this referendum will be conducted by mail in June and then final results will be available in August. The referendum is binding.

Elections BC Website

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This is a very good video. I agree with many points it makes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXu3LXNwEg

[scouterjim]

If I understand properly, voting in this referendum will be conducted by mail in June and then final results will be available in August. The referendum is binding.

Elections BC Website

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This is a very good video. I agree with many points it makes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXu3LXNwEg

I'm still waiting for the manufacturers to "pass on their savings to the customers in the form of lower prices". Like that was EVER going to happen. Manufacturers just view the tax money they save as extra profit. They won't ever lower prices.

[BC_chick]

Today the BC government promised that if we vote yes on the referendum they would cut the HST rate to 10% by 2014 and they will increase corporate tax from 10 to 12%. With all due respect (which is not much), I say it was enough that they fooled us once with their election promises about the HST only to 'change their minds' nine days later. I hope my fellow BC residents are not going to be fooled again on a referendum where there is no turning back.

The HST is NOT good for us. It was supposed to be revenue-neutral and even then it was a slap in the face because it just shifted the tax-burden from businesses to the consumer. If that wasn't bad enough, they earned $850 million extra dollars from it. Oops, nobody saw that coming eh? No wonder they're promising us the moon to keep it.

I'm an accountant and I can assure you that none of my clients have lowered their prices or hired new employees. All they got was increased cashflow. And in a way, even a lot of businesses suffered because of poorer sales on items that were previously exempt from the provincial sales tax portion.

I can't believe their lying faces telling us to vote in favour of this mess. If you don't run a business and you vote yes on this referendum, you're nothing but a fool.

[TimG]

The HST is NOT good for us.

Nonsense. It is broadly accepted as the most efficient form of taxation. The only people who are completely ignorant of economics think otherwise.

It was supposed to be revenue-neutral and even then it was a slap in the face because it just shifted the tax-burden from businesses to the consumer.

So what? The consumer pays all taxes anyways. Whether it is captured directly from businesses or from a VAT does not change what the consumer pays. The advantage of the HST is it makes export oriented businesses much more competitive which means more export jobs in BC.

I'm an accountant and I can assure you that none of my clients have lowered their prices or hired new employees.

Even HST supporters agree that the benefits will take some time to be realized. Expecting results so soon - especially with the referendum coming - is delusional.

The bottom line is the HST is good policy. Consumers SHOULD be paying taxes for the services they use. Whining about paying taxes when one demands free health and education is shameless and hypocritical.

Edited May 27, 2011 by TimG

[eyeball]

The bottom line is the HST is good policy.

Then they shouldn't have lied about it prior to being elected. That's why I'm voting against it. I don't care if it's good policy or not, I am that sick of being lied to.

[TimG]

That's why I'm voting against it. I don't care if it's good policy or not, I am that sick of being lied to.

BS. You are just rationalizing what you wanted to do anyways and you can't use facts because the facts are against you. If you were actually a responsible voter instead of child throwing a hissy fit you would vote based on merits of the policy. Edited May 27, 2011 by TimG

[punked]

Even HST supporters agree that the benefits will take some time to be realized. Expecting results so soon - especially with the referendum coming - is delusional.

Didn't do anything out East and they have been waiting for those benefits for about 15 years now. Heck I remember when it first came out it was called the Blended Sales Tax or BST but because we all called it the Bull Shit tax the government had to change the name. It might be the HST now but it will always be the Bull Shit tax to me.

[Wilber]

Two things. You have to believe they will implement what they say and you have to believe they will still be in power to do it. I'm not sure they have that kind of credibility.

[eyeball]

Didn't do anything out East and they have been waiting for those benefits for about 15 years now. Heck I remember when it first came out it was called the Blended Sales Tax or BST but because we all called it the Bull Shit tax the government had to change the name. It might be the HST now but it will always be the Bull Shit tax to me.

You could always go with the Horse Shit Tax.

[eyeball]

BS. You are just rationalizing what you wanted to do anyways and you can't use facts because the facts are against you. If you were actually a responsible voter instead of child throwing a hissy fit you would vote based on merits of the policy.

Yes I've heard the lecture on how I need to grow up and accept being lied to as a necessary component of our electoral and political system.

Horse shit to that.

What I'm doing is the responsible adult thing, I'm putting my principles ahead of my wallet. You should take note of how this sentiment can cost you and act accordingly i.e. demand more honesty from the politicians you support.

Nothing pisses me off more than when a party or politician I've given my support to cocks up my hopes by proving to be a lying sack of shit. Maybe you can accept that but that probably says more about you than anything.

[TimG]

Yes I've heard the lecture on how I need to grow up and accept being lied to as a necessary component of our electoral and political system.

Of course you have ZERO evidence that the Liberals actually lied on this point. The fact that you choose to put so much weight on unsubstantiated opinion is evidence that your are simply looking for excuses to justify your opposition but you don't have a rational reason to oppose the tax. Edited May 27, 2011 by TimG

[eyeball]

Of course you have ZERO evidence that the Liberals actually lied on this point.

"We were transparent, we were open, we told people what their assumptions were, we've been very clear when it comes to the HST," Campbell told reporters the day the B.C. legislature opened in August 2009.

The BC Liberal Party even told the Canadian Restaurant and Food Association in an email during the election that the HST wasn't even on the table, saying it had "no plans to formally engage the federal government in discussions about potential harmonization."

Source

They lied through their teeth.

[TimG]

They lied through their teeth.

Where is your evidence that the statement made ("no plans to formally engage the federal government in discussions about potential harmonization.") was a lie? You don't have any. You are simply assuming it was a lie because that is convenient for you. However, if you were honest you would acknowledge that the HST is always a topic of discussion and it is extremely plausible that there were not seriously considering it at the time when that statement was made. Later, after they got a strong majority they decided to take another look. Edited May 27, 2011 by TimG

[August1991]

I'm still waiting for the manufacturers to "pass on their savings to the customers in the form of lower prices". Like that was EVER going to happen. Manufacturers just view the tax money they save as extra profit. They won't ever lower prices.

By your logic, manufacturers can raise their prices at will. Why did they wait for the HST to gouge customers? They can do it at anytime. Heck scouterjim, what stops manufacturers from raising prices now? The sky's the limit!

They lied through their teeth.

Eyeball, if you watch the video in the OP, the author dispenses with your logic. You seem to believe:

Gordon Campbell = Lying Evil Weasal

Gordon Campbell = GST

Therefore:

GST = Lying Evil Weasal

This form of reasoning often leads to what is called "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

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I have the impression that Vander Zalm and his ilk don't like taxes. He thinks that lower taxes mean a better government. I have argued elsewhere that that is a very simplistic way of looking at government fiscal policy since it ignores the far more important question of government spending.

We must pay for government spending and a VAT is a far better way to pluck the goose.

Edited May 27, 2011 by August1991

[Wilber]

Where is your evidence that the statement made ("no plans to formally engage the federal government in discussions about potential harmonization.") was a lie? You don't have any. You are simply assuming it was a lie because that is convenient for you. However, if you were honest you would acknowledge that the HST is always a topic of discussion and it is extremely plausible that there were not seriously considering it at the time when that statement was made. Later, after they got a strong majority they decided to take another look.

Now there's some revisionist history. They started negotiations on the HST the day after the election. I don't often agree with eyeball but I do on this one. They lied.

[TimG]

They started negotiations on the HST the day after the election.

The day after? Well it depends entirely on what you assume "formally" means. All of the information exchanged was just that: information exchanges. The type of stuff that has to be exchanged before a formal decision to negotiate on the HST is made.

In any case, the "I am voting against an economically good tax because I think the former leader lied about it" is the most childish argument I have seen in a long time.

The only "message" you will be sending to politicians is that voters are morons.

Edited May 27, 2011 by TimG

[msj]

The video was pretty good.

Only questionable part was when he talks about the PST being taxed at every step.

If I am a retailer (say a shoe store) then I will buy from a wholesaler. I would give the wholesaler my PST number and not pay any PST on the purchase of shoes.

Therefore, the purchase of shoes does not have any PST embedded in it.

Yes, my hydro would, as would the cost of the cash register, computer, shelves, and other items I use to operate my business.

But, no, PST is not getting piled on by 5 steps as presented in the video.

Now, building a house, is an example of PST getting embedded, but, once again, it is not going through 5 steps.

It is simply this: the builder pays PST on the materials/supplies that go in to building the house. This gets embedded in the price.

Other than this the video was excellent and clearly the HST is a better sales tax than the PST contrary various people's ignorance on the matter.

[TimG]

If I am a retailer (say a shoe store) then I will buy from a wholesaler. I would give the wholesaler my PST number and not pay any PST on the purchase of shoes.

This raises another odious aspect of the PST: private businesses are expected to ensure that people getting exemptions are allowed to. With the HST all businesses need to do is keep track the HST registration number of their suppliers - they are not responsible if their customers attempt to commit tax fraud.

[Wilber]

The day after? Well it depends entirely on what you assume "formally" means. All of the information exchanged was just that: information exchanges. The type of stuff that has to be exchanged before a formal decision to negotiate on the HST is made.

In any case, the "I am voting against an economically good tax because I think the former leader lied about it" is the most childish argument I have seen in a long time.

The only "message" you will be sending to politicians is that voters are morons.

Never said how I am voting. No doubt in my mind that they lied though.

[TimG]

Never said how I am voting. No doubt in my mind that they lied though.

I don't think so. Decisions like whether to adopt the HST are not made over night. I find it quite plausible that they had no serious intention of adopting the HST because of fears of public backlash until after the election when they decided to give it a second look when crunching the budget numbers. I can't prove it but you can't prove they were lying either. Edited May 28, 2011 by TimG

[msj]

This raises another odious aspect of the PST: private businesses are expected to ensure that people getting exemptions are allowed to. With the HST all businesses need to do is keep track the HST registration number of their suppliers - they are not responsible if their customers attempt to commit tax fraud.

This is wrong.

A number of years ago the CRA won a case where they denied a business the ITC's (input tax credits - or GST paid by a business) and the refund that would have resulted.

Why?

Because the business paid GST on whatever it was buying but the vendor did not have a GST number and, therefore, did not collect, nor remit any GST. The GST number on the receipt was fraudulent and, therefore, the buyer could not claim the ITC and had to claim what it paid as part of the cost of whatever it was buying (so at least they would get a little bit of break from income tax savings - at pennies on the dollar, of course).

Thanks to this case, the CRA has set up the GST registry to allow businesses to validate a GST number.

Not that many people use it.

When I looked after the accounting on a building project I sure used it (along with the WCB clearance certificates) and was surprised on a couple of occasions (but not as surprised as the subcontractor who did not receive "full" payment).

[TimG]

A number of years ago the CRA won a case where they denied a business the ITC's (input tax credits - or GST paid by a business) and the refund that would have resulted.

I a see a huge difference between having to check an online DB for a valid GST number and keeping signed waivers from all customers that claim an exception.

[msj]

I a see a huge difference between having to check an online DB for a valid GST number and keeping signed waivers from all customers that claim an exception.

This isn't about keeping signed waivers.

It's about a wholesaler who would ask for a copy of the retailers PST certificate.

The retailer would fax/scan it to the wholesaler and the wholesale would keep it on file.

Voila - do not charge PST to the retailer when the retailer is placing an order for inventory purposes.

Now, if PST was still around, or is brought back, then BC could bring in a DB that would do the same thing as having a PST certificate (since the certificates were easy enough to forge).

[msj]

This raises another odious aspect of the PST: private businesses are expected to ensure that people getting exemptions are allowed to. With the HST all businesses need to do is keep track the HST registration number of their suppliers - they are not responsible if their customers attempt to commit tax fraud.

Let's try this again: yes, under the GST/HST a business is responsible if they "pay" GST/HST to someone who has "charged" it but it turns out that the person who "charged" it did not have a proper GST/HST number.

In that instance, the business is on the hook and does need to keep track of the HST number and check the GST/HST registry to protect itself.

Under the PST, yes, the business would have to maintain a list and would need to see certain information to verify the PST exemption (school supplies, for example) was applicable for individual customers.

It must be said that GST/HST does have a number of "exceptions" but since they are dealt with primarily amongst businesses they are not seen by most people.

It also needs to be stated that GST/HST is not nearly as simple as it is made out to be: no, it's not as archaic and stupid as the PST but sometimes it comes bloody close.

One example being the disallowance of ITC's on certain business expenses by medium to large businesses under the HST in BC and Quebec (and possibly Ontario, can't remember).

[TimG]

The retailer would fax/scan it to the wholesaler and the wholesale would keep it on file.

Going through the process of convincing retailer that you do qualify when you are not a regular customer is a royal PIA (fill out forms, sign them, fax them). I don't see how you can equate it to the HST where the only evidence the seller needs to provide is a valid HST number - and that is only when the buyer qualifies for ITCs.