bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Just got this off Wiki. I guess Bertuzzi hitting Moore once and then jumping on top of him was the crime of the century compared to this, not to mention that a couple of Moore's teammates ended up adding to the pile that was on top of him. He was stalked and attacked by Bertuzzi after the game was hopelessly out of reach. The actions of others do not diminish Bertuzzi's primary role in the debilitating assault. Not sanctioned but allowed. By the way, what happened to Marichal? Believe he got a nine game suspension, a small fine and wound up in the Hall of Fame did he not? Bertuzzi was suspended for the rest of the season including the playoffs. Marichal was responding to Roseboro's antics behind the plate. He did not stalk his prey. Both went on to complete their MLB careers...unlike Moore. Edited May 27, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 He was stalked and attacked by Bertuzzi after the game was hopelessly out of reach. The actions of others do not diminish Bertuzzi's primary role in the debilitating assault. Marichal was responding to Roseboro's antics behind the plate. He did not stalk his prey. Both went on to complete there MLB careers...unlike Moore. There was a leadup to both incidents, they weren't spontaneous. Marichal hit Roseboro in the head with a bat three times. He was damn lucky he didn't kill him. Bertuzzi hit Moore in the head once with his fist, jumped on him and was unlucky enough to injure him seriously. Neither incident is justifiable but the fact remains, Marichal used a weapon, Bertuzzi did not. It was a sucker punch but Bertuzzi dropped his stick before he hit Moore. Basically you are saying it is OK to commit an armed robbery as long as you don't kill anyone. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) There was a leadup to both incidents, they weren't spontaneous. Marichal hit Roseboro in the head with a bat three times. He was damn lucky he didn't kill him. So he had more "luck" than Bertuzzi? Bertuzzi was just going to avenge a previous event but not hurt 'em too bad? Bertuzzi hit Moore in the head once with his fist, jumped on him and was unlucky enough to injure him seriously. Neither incident is justifiable but the fact remains, Marichal used a weapon, Bertuzzi did not. It was a sucker punch but Bertuzzi dropped his stick before he hit Moore. Ha! The famous badge of honor...dropping his stick to fight mano y mano in the finest hockey tradition! Basically you are saying it is OK to commit an armed robbery as long as you don't kill anyone. No...I am saying that Bertuzzi's aggravated assault ended a man's career while Marichal's did not. Further, I refuse to pay NHL prices to watch ritualized fighting, retaliation, or goons on ice. What does it take to get ejected from the game...murder? But if you enjoy that sort of thing, have at it. Edited May 27, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bloodyminded Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Better not have been a sperm bank Would I admit it if it were? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. But I wouldn't expect you to get that. I get it... You're clinically blind! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Black Dog Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 No...I am saying that Bertuzzi's aggravated assault ended a man's career while Marichal's did not. Further, I refuse to pay NHL prices to watch ritualized fighting, retaliation, or goons on ice. What does it take to get ejected from the game...murder? You talk as if these types of incidents are the norm. They aren't, which is why it's a big deal when they do take place. With that said, I think the NHLs approach to violence and discipline is a bit of a joke. Nonetheless, I don't let that diminish the game itself which is capable of moments of transcendental sports magic like almost no other. You can't see past the ugliness? Fine. But I'd rather watch a game where mostly decent men can sometimes cross the line on the ice versus another sport populated by gun toting thugs, wife-beaters and drug cheats. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) You talk as if these types of incidents are the norm. They aren't, which is why it's a big deal when they do take place. With that said, I think the NHLs approach to violence and discipline is a bit of a joke. Yes...and I concur. Nonetheless, I don't let that diminish the game itself which is capable of moments of transcendental sports magic like almost no other. You can't see past the ugliness? Fine. But I'd rather watch a game where mostly decent men can sometimes cross the line on the ice versus another sport populated by gun toting thugs, wife-beaters and drug cheats. If only that were true...thugs, cheaters, and druggies are just as common in the NHL. Back in the late 80's, I remember "Hall of Famer" Dino Ciccarelli being arrested for indecent exposure in my town...he liked to get his morning paper with no pants on near a kid's bus stop. I'd rather watch college hockey or international competition than suffer through the violent drama queens, penalties, and retaliation so common in the NHL. Edited May 27, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Black Dog Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 If only that were true...thugs, cheaters, and druggies are just as common in the NHL. Just as common? Nope.For example: in 1998, the study Pros and Cons: The Criminals Who Play in the NFL,found that 21 percent of NFL players -- more than one in five -- have been charged with at least one serious crime, including two murder arrests, seven rape charges, 45 counts of domestic violence and 42 charges of assault and battery. You'd be hard pressed to find any other sport to match that. Baseball? Mcgwire, Bonds, Canseco, A-roid...the lust goes on. Not top say hockey doesn't have any disreputable characters. But relative to the other major NA sports, it's squeaky clean. I'd rather watch college hockey or international competition than suffer through the violent drama queens, penalties, and retaliation so common in the NHL. Yes yes yes. Feel free to stop watching this thead about NHL hockey at any time as well. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Just as common? Nope.For example: in 1998, the study Pros and Cons: The Criminals Who Play in the NFL,found that 21 percent of NFL players -- more than one in five -- have been charged with at least one serious crime, including two murder arrests, seven rape charges, 45 counts of domestic violence and 42 charges of assault and battery. You'd be hard pressed to find any other sport to match that. Still not convinced of the NHL's relative squeaky clean character and alter boy behaviour, especially if you include the on ice violence. That and the smaller number of players. Not top say hockey doesn't have any disreputable characters. But relative to the other major NA sports, it's squeaky clean. Oh sure..."squeaky clean"....LOL! Yes yes yes. Feel free to stop watching this thead about NHL hockey at any time as well. Why? This is the best chance for Canada to get The Cup back in years....how long has it been...1993? I want to be here to rub it in! Edited May 27, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Black Dog Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Still not convinced of the NHL's relative squeaky clean character and alter boy behaviour, especially if you include the on ice violence. That and the smaller number of players. Of course you're not convinced. Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion? "If you include on-ice violence" Interesting that you'd add that little caveat. As if the relatively harmless tussles are on par with pulling a loaded gun in the locker room, running a dog fighting ring, or killing your wife. Oh sure..."squeaky clean"....LOL! Relative to the other major NA sports: yes. Why? This is the best chance for Canada to get The Cup back in years....how long has it been...1993? I want to be here to rub it in Rub what in? FTR Canada gets the cup back every year: the majority of players are Canadian and teh Cup resides here. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Of course you're not convinced. Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good opinion? Sorry, but math doesn't work that way. "If you include on-ice violence" Interesting that you'd add that little caveat. As if the relatively harmless tussles are on par with pulling a loaded gun in the locker room, running a dog fighting ring, or killing your wife. Yes...such harmless tussles are just part of the entertainment...too bad if Moore was actually hurt and debilitated. Relative to the other major NA sports: yes. Such a fine benchmark! Rub what in? FTR Canada gets the cup back every year: the majority of players are Canadian and teh Cup resides here. If you say so....Canadians no longer dominate the real game. But when it comes to fightin' on ice.... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Black Dog Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Sorry, but math doesn't work that way. What math? Yes...such harmless tussles are just part of the entertainment...too bad if Moore was actually hurt and debilitated. Such incidents are a decided rarity. Why are you implying that's not the case by invoking it so frequently? Such a fine benchmark! Feel free to propose another. If you say so....Canadians no longer dominate the real game. But when it comes to fightin' on ice.... 50% of NHLers are Canadian. The majority of elite players are Canadian. You're basically just trolling at this point. And poorly, I might add. Edited May 27, 2011 by Black Dog Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 What math? Nevermind....the concept is lost on you. Such incidents are a decided rarity. Why are you implying that's not the case by invoking it so frequently? Because the potential for such serious injury is perpetuated by a league policy that assures continued fighting, retaliation, etc. Hell, Bertuzzi has counter-sued the Canucks ex-coach because he told him to do it, which raises another set of questions concerning Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots on ice skates. Feel free to propose another. How about the Chinese table tennis league..did you include them? 50% of NHLers are Canadian. The majority of elite players are Canadian. You're basically just trolling at this point. And poorly, I might add. You keep coming back for the bait....makes a troll's job easy. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 So he had more "luck" than Bertuzzi? Bertuzzi was just going to avenge a previous event but not hurt 'em too bad? That's exactly what I am saying. Would your opinion of Marichal be the same if he had killed Roseboro or turned him into a vegetable? If Moore's injuries had not been severe, do you think Bertuzzi would have been subject to this kind of universal condemnation or just rightly criticized for a monumentally stupid and contemptible cheap shot? Ha! The famous badge of honor...dropping his stick to fight mano y mano in the finest hockey tradition! It's not a badge of honour, every hockey player knows a stick is a weapon and therefore not to be used in a fight. Doesn't that also apply to baseball bats? No...I am saying that Bertuzzi's aggravated assault ended a man's career while Marichal's did not. Further, I refuse to pay NHL prices to watch ritualized fighting, retaliation, or goons on ice. What does it take to get ejected from the game...murder? No, you are unable to separate the act from the injury. You can justify one act because one perpetrator was lucky enough that the consequences of their act were not as severe as someone else's regardless of their intentions. A lot of things can get you ejected from a game. This one got Bertuzzi ejected for the remaining 13 regular season games plus the playoffs. I do agree with some of your sentiment though. I grew up with the game and played organized hockey into my early teens before helmets. I think the NHL is it's own worst enemy at times. I think the game would be better without fighting and how can you reconcile the same team that has lost the game's best player indefinitely to a head shot, with regularly playing someone like Matt Cooke in their lineup. Canuck tickets are too rich for me as well. I can watch the local AHL team play for a quarter of the price. Good hockey even if they are a Calgary farm team. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 BTW, this season the Canucks had the same number of Canadians in their lineup at one time or another as did the Canadiens. 20 Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bloodyminded Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 I do agree with some of your sentiment though. I grew up with the game and played organized hockey into my early teens before helmets. I think the NHL is it's own worst enemy at times. I think the game would be better without fighting and how can you reconcile the same team that has lost the game's best player indefinitely to a head shot, with regularly playing someone like Matt Cooke in their lineup. Yeah, and then there's the matter of youth hockey. Everyone wants to rid the kids' games of violence (which they've largely learned is not only acceptable, but awesome). So how do we do this? "No fighting 'till you're older"? That's not gonna wash. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) That's exactly what I am saying. Would your opinion of Marichal be the same if he had killed Roseboro or turned him into a vegetable? If Moore's injuries had not been severe, do you think Bertuzzi would have been subject to this kind of universal condemnation or just rightly criticized for a monumentally stupid and contemptible cheap shot? I already pointed to Marichal's assault as an example of unacceptable behaviour, and his league took swift action without debate over 45 years ago. The NHL (and player's union I suppose) kibitzed over what to do. Bertuzzi's action was worse in that not only did it debilitate Moore, but it was a systemic assault supported and encouraged by his coach, many other players, and the league to keep ticket sales higher. It's not a badge of honour, every hockey player knows a stick is a weapon and therefore not to be used in a fight. Doesn't that also apply to baseball bats? Are you kidding me? Dropping the stick is more honorable because fighting is to be kept at a low level corporal exercise in testosterone driven payback? How noble! No, you are unable to separate the act from the injury. You can justify one act because one perpetrator was lucky enough that the consequences of their act were not as severe as someone else's regardless of their intentions. I have not justified Marichal's actions....I presented it as another example of unacceptable behaviour that I am not sure you were even aware of. A lot of things can get you ejected from a game. This one got Bertuzzi ejected for the remaining 13 regular season games plus the playoffs. I do agree with some of your sentiment though. I grew up with the game and played organized hockey into my early teens before helmets. I think the NHL is it's own worst enemy at times. I think the game would be better without fighting and how can you reconcile the same team that has lost the game's best player indefinitely to a head shot, with regularly playing someone like Matt Cooke in their lineup. I don't have any beef with hockey as a sport, it's just that the NHL is the worst example of the product at a professional level. At times, it's not hockey at all. Canuck tickets are too rich for me as well. I can watch the local AHL team play for a quarter of the price. Good hockey even if they are a Calgary farm team. My company CEO use to own an entire franchise and we had access to an $80,000 suite at the Xcel Energy Center (Wild). When my turn came up (four free tickets)...I passed. I'd rather watch high school games instead. Edited May 27, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Yeah, and then there's the matter of youth hockey. Everyone wants to rid the kids' games of violence (which they've largely learned is not only acceptable, but awesome). So how do we do this? "No fighting 'till you're older"? That's not gonna wash. Unless you ban contact, hockey will always be a violent game. It's a question of what kind of violence you are prepared to accept. I agree, it is insane to tell kids to do one thing while condoning the opposite from those they look up to. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 I already pointed to Marichal's assault as an example of unacceptable behaviour, and his league took swift action without debate over 45 years ago. The NHL (and player's union I suppose) kibitzed over what to do. Bertuzzi's action was worse in that not only did it debilitate Moore, but it was a systemic assault supported and encouraged by his coach, many other players, and the league to keep ticket sales higher. You maintain it was no big deal because Roseboro wasn't seriously hurt and they eventually became good buddies. Are you kidding me? Dropping the stick is more honorable because fighting is to be kept at a low level corporal exercise in testosterone driven payback? How noble! No, it comes from the fact that every player carries a stick. It is the only major team sport were all the players are armed and as such it is a neccesity, not a matter of honour. If every baseball player had a bat within easy reach at all times, it would be an issue in that game as well. Even more so if it was a contact sport. I have not justified Marichal's actions....I presented it as another example of unacceptable behaviour that I am not sure you were even aware of. You're right, I wasn't aware of it. Flabergasted would be the word. Beyond the pale behaviour even for hockey. I don't have any beef with hockey as a sport, it's just that the NHL is the worst example of the product at a professional level. At times, it's not hockey at all. Next to Olympic hockey, it is the best there is most of the time, the playoffs in particular. Every league has its challanges and reconciling what kind of violence is appropriate is hockey's biggest. I agree that the NHL has not done a good job. When I watch any kind of sport, I want to see the best players play, not be incapacitated. My company use to own an entire franchise and we had access to an $80,000 suite at the Xcel Energy Center (Wild). When my turn came up (four free tickets)...I passed. I'd rather watch high school games instead. You had to watch the Wild, that explains it. No wonder you were bored. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 You maintain it was no big deal because Roseboro wasn't seriously hurt and they eventually became good buddies. Nonsense...I never maintained any such thing. I said that Bertuzzi's aggression was worse...acutely...and sytemtically. No, it comes from the fact that every player carries a stick. It is the only major team sport were all the players are armed and as such it is a neccesity, not a matter of honour. If every baseball player had a bat within easy reach at all times, it would be an issue in that game as well. Even more so if it was a contact sport. Have you ever seen a lacrosse game? You're right, I wasn't aware of it. Flabergasted would be the word. Beyond the pale behaviour even for hockey. That's because it was shocking behaviour....way back then. But not for the NHL today. Next to Olympic hockey, it is the best there is most of the time, the playoffs in particular. Every league has its challanges and reconciling what kind of violence is appropriate is hockey's biggest. I agree that the NHL has not done a good job. When I watch any kind of sport, I want to see the best players play, not be incapacitated. Then get rid of the goons and the unwritten fighting policy. Just be done with it. Let those who bitch and moan about the impact on ticket sales, team dynamics, and playing style complain all they want. You had to watch the Wild, that explains it. No wonder you were bored. Yea...it was 50% Canadians. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Nonsense...I never maintained any such thing. I said that Bertuzzi's aggression was worse...acutely...and sytemtically. We simply dissagree on this. Have you ever seen a lacrosse game? I have. Box lacrosse is very similar to hockey with a similar code of conduct. That's because it was shocking behaviour....way back then. But not for the NHL today. Hitting another player over the head with a stick is and always has been in hockey. Then get rid of the goons and the unwritten fighting policy. Just be done with it. Let those who bitch and moan about the impact on ticket sales, team dynamics, and playing style complain all they want. We don't dissagree on this. Yea...it was 50% Canadians. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 Don't feed the troll. You already did...thanks for setting up my 50% punchline...it worked beautifully! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 I agree on the fighting part, retaliation is part of every sport. In this case it got out of hand. You are not trying to tell me that no football, basketball or even baseball player's carreer has ever been ended by a malicious hit are you? Here's the difference... In hockey,if a fight starts,the players onvolved get a penalty...This amounts to a "go sit in the corner" (penalty box) type of thing... If someone starts a fight in a football game,which is probably one of the more idiotic things one can do considering the equipment involved,one gets... 1.Immediately ejected from the contest... 2.Usually suspended... 3.At the pro level,fined a large sum of money It almost always works the same in baseball.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted May 27, 2011 Report Posted May 27, 2011 One might make some interesting distinctions between 1907 and 2011. (I'm talking about the racism. That Cobb was a sonofabitch has been well-established, that's true.) If Cobb had'nt .367 (I believe) for his career,he would have been in prison... It was once said of Ty Cobb that he would climb a mountain to punch an echo... Ironically,the very same inner drive and anger that pushed Cobb to succeed was almost the very same inner anger and drive that pushed Jackie Robinson... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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