The Bible

betsy · June 10, 2011

The truth is that ancient Hebrews, like ancient Mesopotamians, had a three level cosmology as described here.

Apparently, your statement is incorrect. Mesopotamians believed in a 6-level universe!

Cosmology in Mesopotamia was much more sophisticated. Babylonians believed in a six-level universe with two heavens above the sky, the heaven of the stars, the earth, the underground of the Apsu, and the underworld of the dead. The Earth was created by the god Marduk as a raft floating on the Apsu. The gods were divided into two pantheons, one occupying the heavens and the other in the underworld.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec01.html

scouterjim · June 10, 2011

Apparently, your statement is incorrect. Mesopotamians believed in a 6-level universe!

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec01.html

I think you know more about COSMOTOLOGY that COSMOLOGY, Betsy.

cybercoma · June 10, 2011

all science-proven facts! Information that only the Creator can know.

If only the Creator can know this information, but it's science-proven... does that make science the Creator?

dre · June 10, 2011

It's not a "new one". Hinduism is thousands of years old. See? You're learning things now.

That is entirely possible. Now, instead of focusing on the immediacy of such things as "God's not real, HE'S just a myth" etc. it would be helpful to study and try to understand what it really means. You might start with asking "Why do people want to believe in something greater than ourselves", and what does that do for us, what actions can that result in. The ideas translate into actions.

You might start with asking "Why do people want to believe in something greater than ourselves", and what does that do for us, what actions can that result in. The ideas translate into actions.

Thats an excellent question... If religious activity was just a complete waste of time, you would think it would have been weeded out by natural selection?

Iv seen lots of interesting theories on that. My own belief is that its just a consequence of intelligence and imagination. For whatever reason humans have worshipped as god (or deified) pretty much anything they didnt understand going back thousands of years. Intelligence gave human the power to build ellaborate constructs in their mind to explain the things they didnt understand.

The human race clearly has a predisposition to making up ellaborate constructs to explain the unexplained... this is evident in the endless diferent religions throughout history but also evident in all kinds of other areas. A unexplained light in the sky becomes little green aliens.

My point being it might not be a trait that was "naturally selected" because it gave humans that had it a big advantage over ones that didnt... it might be a side effect of another trait probably intelligence.

But theres more to it than just the human disposition I described. It has also been an effective tool for leaders in society to maintain social order and collectivize values and in many cases its actually been pushed on societies from the top down.

This is a good read that covers both the human predisposition, and also the influence of leaders and strongmen in the formation and spread of religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

We actually got to watch those religions form when tribes that had never seen any kind of technology at all were suddenly introduced to technology and goods when the Melanasian islands were used as a staging area during the war by both Japanese and allied forces, who airdropped a huge ammount of supplies and goods. The soldiers would give these natives boxes of food and clothing, trinkets etc. The "gods" in cargoism are the soldiers and the planes themselves. After the soldiers packed up their stuff and left full-fledged religions developed. The tribesmen cut down huge tracts of forest in the jungle, fassioning air-strips complete with runways and even control towers. They would even staff these control towers with tribemen who would wear headphones fassioned with bark mimicking what they had seen during the war.

The most widely known period of cargo cult activity occurred amongst the Melanesian islanders in the years during and after World War II. A small population of unsophisticated peoples observed, often right in front of their dwellings, the largest war ever fought between technologically advanced countries. First, the Japanese arrived with a great deal of supplies and later the Allied forces did likewise.
The vast amounts of materiel that both sides airdropped (or airlifted to airstrips) to troops on these islands meant drastic changes to the lifestyle of the islanders, many of whom had never seen outsiders before. Manufactured clothing, medicine, canned food, tents, weapons and other goods arrived in vast quantities for the soldiers, who often shared some of it with the islanders who were their guides and hosts. This was true of the Japanese Army as well, at least initially before relations deteriorated in most regions.

Missionaries and colonial authorities who had been present before World War II were evacuated from combat areas, which deprived the villagers of people who could explain what was going on. At the same time there was little fraternization, or at least exchange of knowledge, between US troops and the Melanesians.

[edit] Post-war

With the end of the war, the military abandoned the airbases and stopped dropping cargo. In response, charismatic individuals developed cults among remote Melanesian populations that promised to bestow on their followers deliveries of food, arms, jeeps, etc. The cult leaders explained that the cargo would be gifts from their own ancestors, or other sources, as had occurred with the outsider armies. In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day to day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles.[3] The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses.[citation needed]

In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of airplanes out of straw and cut new military-style landing strips out of the jungle, hoping to attract more airplanes. The cult members thought that the foreigners had some special connection to the deities and ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches. Interestingly, there are no reports of villagers mimicking the Japanese army.[citation needed]

Ultimately, although these practices did not bring about the return of the airplanes that brought such marvelous cargo during the war, they did have the effect of eradicating most of the religious practices that had existed prior to the war.[citation needed]

Cargo cults typically were created by individual leaders, or strong men in the Melanesian culture, and it is not at all clear if these leaders were sincere, or were simply running scams on gullible populations. The leaders typically held cult rituals well away from established towns and colonial authorities, thus making reliable information about these practices very difficult to acquire.

betsy · June 10, 2011

If only the Creator can know this information, but it's science - proven... does that make science the Creator?

:blink:

You might like to re-phrase that since your statement implies you don't know the difference between the meaning of created and proven.

Your rational thinking goes like this:

If the killer stabbed his victim (therefore he knew how the victim died), but it's forensic technicians who proved that the victim died from getting stabbed....does that make the forensic techs the murderer?

And you expect me to take your opinion seriously???

And you want me to believe that you know what you're on about talking about scientific methods with seeming "authority" on the subject.....when you offer this empirical evidence for all to see that you don't even grasp the simple statement you've quoted!

Now I see why you don't want anything cut-and-paste. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited June 10, 2011 by betsy

betsy · June 10, 2011

Thats an excellent question... If religious activity was just a complete waste of time, you would think it would have been weeded out by natural selection?

Iv seen lots of interesting theories on that. My own belief is that its just a consequence of intelligence and imagination.

And where did that intelligence comes from? To waste time pondering on our beginning....and what comes at the end? Why is there a need for religion?

whatever reason humans have worshipped as god (or deified) pretty much anything they didnt understand going back thousands of years. Intelligence gave human the power to build ellaborate constructs in their mind to explain the things they didnt understand.

The human race clearly has a predisposition to making up ellaborate constructs to explain the unexplained... this is evident in the endless diferent religions throughout history but also evident in all kinds of other areas. A unexplained light in the sky becomes little green aliens.

But, why? Why this pre-occupation with the un-explained?

The monkeys and the chimps....their pre-occupation is into grooming, but not humans! We have tons of pre-occupation.

Adults moved on from simple child play - their preoccupation relative to their age and development!

We've got hobbies! Preoccupation that we can live without since it's only for amusement! Not survival. And yet we have that!

Our interests in life and our way of life.....it's way, way, ahead! In all aspects. In all areas!

My point being it might not be a trait that was "naturally selected" because it gave humans that had it a big advantage over ones that didnt... it might be a side effect of another trait probably intelligence.

Why is it that only humans have this "phenomenon" to become higly intelligent that they can create for advancement? The last time I checked, the monkeys and the chimps, the birds and the reptiles are still struggling to survive in the jungle....unless they're being cared for by humans. At least you'd think they'd come up with something to make life easier for them....like we did.

Isn't evolution supposed to be for "progression?"

That's one other thing that can't be explained by science. It's been explained by the Bible though....and proven by observable evidence around us! Today. As we speak.

Edited June 10, 2011 by betsy

BubberMiley · June 10, 2011

Isn't evolution supposed to be for "progression?"

God doesn't like it when you criticize his good works. I'll put in a good word for you how you're just trolling the internet and not really being blasphemous.

DogOnPorch · June 10, 2011

God doesn't like it when you criticize his good works. I'll put in a good word for you how you're just trolling the internet and not really being blasphemous.

Perhaps betsy could use a nice, tasty Cavendish banana.

GostHacked · June 10, 2011

And where did that intelligence comes from? To waste time pondering on our beginning....and what comes at the end? Why is there a need for religion?

Because people are spiritually weak. They need to believe in something bigger than them. When they really just need to believe in themselves.

g_bambino · June 10, 2011

Quite an impressive "obvious," too!

Once we've weeded out all of that which is only conclusions based upon your personal interpretation of some vague wording in the Bible, no, it really isn't all that impressive at all. Indeed, much of what you list as being proven by the Bible was, in fact, known before the Bible was written; ocean currents, the undulation of the sea bed, the correlation between good health and sanitation, the necessity of blood to animal life, the immensity of the number of stars, these were all not only known to civilizations for hundreds if not thousands of years BC, but also to peoples who never did and still to this day don't have any relation to the Mediterranean region from which Judaism and its religious text - the Bible - emerged.

Why shouldn't we instead look at all the frauds, hoaxes, falsification of data, unsubstantaited claims, revisions, blunders and bloopers made by so-called science to support evolution?

Go ahead. That kind of analysis and study is generally how science progresses.

[+, c/e]

Edited June 10, 2011 by g_bambino

cybercoma · June 10, 2011

You might like to re-phrase that since your statement implies you don't know the difference between the meaning of created and proven.

Your rational thinking goes like this:

If the killer stabbed his victim (therefore he knew how the victim died), but it's forensic technicians who proved that the victim died from getting stabbed....does that make the forensic techs the murderer?

And you expect me to take your opinion seriously???

And you want me to believe that you know what you're on about talking about scientific methods with seeming "authority" on the subject.....when you offer this empirical evidence for all to see that you don't even grasp the simple statement you've quoted!

Now I see why you don't want anything cut-and-paste.

Uh... by proving someone was stabbed, the forensic techs haven't actually found the killer.

betsy · June 11, 2011

Uh... by proving someone was stabbed, the forensic techs haven't actually found the killer.

Of course not....yet. It's just the start. But eventually, most murders end up getting solved....the killers getting caught.

betsy · June 11, 2011

I'm not. Are you?

Yes, I'm sure. You see, scientists publish their findings in these things called Academic Journals. Anyone can read them, see how they came to their conclusions and challenge them if they are wrong.

Oooh-la-la. What is this?

In 2002, Science withdrew eight papers authored by Jan Hendrik Schön after it was shown that he had fabricated much of his data.

An article published in Science in 2002 on the neurotoxicity of the drug MDMA ("ecstasy") caused some controversy when a mix-up of vials caused the paper to be retracted in 2003 (see Retracted article on dopaminergic neurotoxicity of MDMA).

Science encountered another controversy in 2006 when papers by Hwang Woo-suk on cloning human embryos were withdrawn by Seoul National University due to apparent scientific fraud.

A committee set up by Science to study the matter found that the journal's procedures had been followed, and the journal could do little in the face of deliberate fraud.

The committee recommended that papers received should henceforth be classified as non-controversial or controversial; controversial papers should be looked at more thoroughly. Science also suggested that Nature may want to take up the same standards it was adopting.[12]

Kennedy defended the peer-review system, pointing out that catching fraud would require "costly and offensive oversight on the vast majority of scientists in order to catch the occasional cheater".[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_(journal)

I also question this:

The committee recommended that papers received should henceforth be classified as non-controversial or controversial; controversial papers should be looked at more thoroughly.

Shouldn't everything - controversial or not - be given the same thorough examination?

Kennedy defended the peer-review system, pointing out that catching fraud would require "costly and offensive oversight on the vast majority of scientists in order to catch the occasional cheater"

That according to Kennedy, "cheating comes only from the "occasional" cheater, and that it's too costly - and offensive to burgeoning egos - to do a thorough examination of everything submitted....therefore they'll just live with it!

So how do the common people like me, Segnosaur, WIP and Cybercoma know what among all these submitted research/findings are fabrications and pure drivel?

Where's the credibility of this journal?

Better question: Where's the credibility of the so-called highly esteemed Peer-review? :lol:

Edited June 11, 2011 by betsy

betsy · June 11, 2011

Btw, those fraud and fabrication posted in that article about Science Academic Journal are news to me too.

They're in addition to the other hoaxes, frauds etc., that's already been cited in previous postings.

Boy....every way you turn.....from peer-reviews....to books.... to Dawkins....to forums and boards.....fraud and monkey-business doesn't seem to be far behind. :lol:

Edited June 11, 2011 by betsy

betsy · June 11, 2011

FACT: Man is superior to all other living things.

Why is it that only humans have this "phenomenon" to become higly intelligent that they can create for advancement? The last time I checked, the monkeys and the chimps, the birds and the reptiles are still struggling to survive in the jungle....unless they're being cared for by humans. At least you'd think they'd come up the ladder, evolve with something to make life easier for them....like we did. After all, if they can adapt....surely having greater intelligence is one sure way of surviving?

Isn't evolution supposed to be for "progression?"

Why are we so advanced...so superior to all other animals, which include all other primates?

That's one other thing that can't be explained by science. It's been explained by the Bible though....and proven by observable evidence around us! Today. As we speak.

We are superior to all the creatures described in the Bible because God made it so.

Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Edited June 11, 2011 by betsy

BubberMiley · June 11, 2011

FACT: Man is superior to all other living things.

God said we have dominion over the other creatures. He never said we are "superior." He said we are in his image, but we are all Gord's creatures. Once again, he hates it when you put words in his mouth.

DogOnPorch · June 11, 2011

God said we have dominion over the other creatures. He never said we are "superior." He said we are in his image, but we are all Gord's creatures. Once again, he hates it when you put words in his mouth.

Who is this Gord fellow?

:lol:

Young Earth Creationists like betsy would have us believe that every creature that ever lived on this planet since the Late Precambrian on up, all "popped-up" at the same time some 6000 years ago...missed being described in any fashion (a T-Rex would make a bit of an impression, I think)...then made sure none of them made it on this amazing Ark...including swimming and flying varieties of extinct life. This combined with extint plants and microorganisms, of course. Any room for 300' tall horsetails on that Ark?

:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, betsy probably drives a car powered by decomposed extinct plant life from the Carboniferous Period or there-abouts. The irony.

bloodyminded · June 11, 2011

Meanwhile, betsy probably drives a car powered by decomposed extinct plant life from the Carboniferous Period or there-abouts. The irony.

You're totally missing the sober and cogent argument which answers exactly this point: "The Bible."

Keep up.

betsy · June 12, 2011

Young Earth Creationists like betsy

Don't label me. I've already said - several times now - that the age of the earth isn't my concern....either young or old is all just the same to me. It doesn't change anything. Everything was created by God.

That some of my sources came from young-earth creationists pointing out the possible fabrication/fraudulent steps taken by evolutionists (which is not far-fetched considering all the other frauds/hoaxes and lies perpetuated to prop up the theory of evolution), does not necessarily mean I am a young earth creationist.

Hopefully you were genuinely ignorant of my position on this, since deliberately mis-labelling me (to support your rebuttal) only mirrors the same deceptive measures committed by some pro-evolutionist scientists (to support evolution), and only underlines the emerging fact that evolutionists are propping up their theory with dishonesty.

would have us believe that every creature that ever lived on this planet since the Late Precambrian on up, all "popped-up" at the same time some 6000 years ago...missed being described in any fashion (a T-Rex would make a bit of an impression, I think)...then made sure none of them made it on this amazing Ark...including swimming and flying varieties of extinct life. This combined with extint plants and microorganisms, of course. Any room for 300' tall horsetails on that Ark?

Genesis was obviously not a blow-by-blow account! And yet, in just only a few chapters, Moses wrote some incredible passages that describe creation, only to be confirmed true by science.

Compare that to your evolution that produce not a single valid evidence! Furthermore it's been propped up by deception - not excluding some well-known scientists like Dawkins, who think nothing of making unsubstantiated claims.

But of course, I expect you to resist the Bible tooth and nail....at all cost! For atheists like you, to even consider the possibility of truth in the Bible would mean your faith of "no-god" is busted! It will be the death of atheism. You become a skeptic.

Meanwhile, betsy probably drives a car powered by decomposed extinct plant life from the Carboniferous Period or there-abouts. The irony.

Where's the irony? All those were created and given by my God. The intelligence included, to be able to make that car!

Meanwhile, DOP probably not only drives a car powered by decomposed extinct plant life from the "Carboniferous Period or there-abouts,".....AND enjoys the luxurious comfort of modern-day living (not to mention all the latest gadgets from technology including his super high-speed latest generation of computer) - all of which comes from the incredible intelligence of mankind!

The irony! :rolleyes:

In the meantime, the poor chimp still struggles to duke it out in the jungle. The closest this cousin will ever get to luxurious comfort is by ending up in the zoo!

There's the very, very big irony! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited June 12, 2011 by betsy

bloodyminded · June 12, 2011

What in the world makes you think that chimpanzees are not perfectly content to live as they do?

And, oddly, it appears you're gloating about the chimps' circumstances, as if it's a pitched battle between us and them, and the glorious humans have won. It's a strange way to look at the world.

Oh...and look, Alanis, you might check out what "irony" really means.

Edited June 12, 2011 by bloodyminded

betsy · June 12, 2011

God said we have dominion over the other creatures. He never said we are "superior." He said we are in his image, but we are all Gord's creatures. Once again, he hates it when you put words in his mouth.

What among the creatures specified in the Bible has achieved what we have? Name one. Explain.

betsy · June 12, 2011

What in the world makes you think that chimpanzees are not perfectly content to live as they do?

Good point! That reminds me....why was man not content to live as we did?

Why does man have this desire to live up?

I've got quite a list of those why(s).....thanks for that.

And, oddly, it appears you're gloating about the chimps' circumstances, as if it's a pitched battle between us and them, and the glorious humans have won. It's a strange way to look at the world.

Pitched battle between us? :blink:

For pointing out that man had evolved to where we are....and yet, oddly, our cousin is left far, far, far behind?

Wait a minute! Did you mean, like.... sibling rivalry? :lol: :lol: :lol:

A really strange way indeed to look at the point that's being presented.

Edited June 12, 2011 by betsy

bloodyminded · June 12, 2011

Good point! That reminds me....why was man not content to live as we did?

Why does man have this desire to live up?

I've got quite a list of those why(s).....thanks for that.

Pitched battle between us?

For pointing out that man had evolved to where we are....and yet, oddly, our cousin is left far, far, far behind?

Wait a minute! Did you mean, like.... sibling rivalry?

A really strange way indeed to look at the point that's being presented.

That humans have developed in an intellectually and emotionally more sophisticated manner than have the great apes is easily as much an argument for evolution as for God.

And I'm just not sure why you appear to take pleasure in the disparity. The disparity is neither a good thing nor a bad one.

I'm also questioning why you think it's "irony."

Did you know that virtually every ant you see is a female? Oh, the irony! ??????

Edited June 12, 2011 by bloodyminded

betsy · June 12, 2011

That humans have developed in an intellectually and emotionally more sophisticated manner than have the great apes is easily as much an argument for evolution as for God.

Whoa! Not as much! If you guys keep score points, clearly the Bible had already scored numerous points for all these science-proven facts compared to macro-evolution's big fat zero!

FACT: Nothing holds up Earth. It is affected by gravity.

FACT: The earth is round.

FACT: There is an incalculable number of stars.

FACT: Mountains and trenches in the deep blue sea.

FACT: Invisible atoms, the building blocks

FACT: Noah’s Ark and Ship Building

FACT: “Many of the great scientists of the past who founded and developed the key disciplines of science were creationists!”

FACT: A finished creation.

FACT: The universe is deteriorating

FACT: The Universe Must Have Had a Beginning

FACT:: Existence of ocean currents

FACT: SCIENCE REMAINS BAFFLED!

FACT: EXPANDING UNIVERSE

FACT: Hydrological Cycle or Water Cycle

FACT: PROPHECIES HAVE COME TRUE!

FACT:

EXPANDING UNIVERSE: Science uses the word, "STRETCHING/STRETCHES/STRETCHED!”

FACT: Expression - "CURVATURE OF SPACE," still related to STRETCHING UNIVERSE