cybercoma Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Which one? I already told her there's been nearly 3000 recorded deities in history. Keep prodding at her though. You can always tell how frustrated she is by the number of faces she posts and how big her font gets. Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Keep prodding at her though. You can always tell how frustrated she is by the number of faces she posts and how big her font gets. Yeah I can almost picture her, shaking in frustration as she desperately tries to find sites from which she can steal text from and coming up empty, showing that her reliance on spamming and her inability to think for herself has left her incapable of a proper debate. Perhaps we should take wagers... Do you think betsy's next post will be: - A spam (and probably theft) from some site giving yet more easily-debunked creationist views that have nothing to do with the issues that have been raised - An illogical dismissal of those same issues, where she doesn't actually address the issues, but ignores them or claims that they "aren't important" - A false claim that she "needs more information" (even though the information has been given in this thread before) segnosaur, you don't actually have to reply to Saipan. Yeah I know. Hey, I don't have to really reply to anyone in this thread. But, he made statements that needed to be addressed, so I addressed them. (And I have to give him credit, at least he's not "betsy the spam-bot machine". Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Or, they engage in the "galloping Gish" (which looks a little like what she is doing here).A "Gish gallop" refers to creationist Duane Gish, who developed a method of "debate" whereby he would present a large number of half-truths, lies and distortions....As a result, the creationist ends up happy that they managed to "win" not by presenting clear and reasonable arguments, but by drowning their opponent in bull cr*p. No fair, I cited Gish (link) just before. Ah yes you did. My apologies. (I had been away from from the thread for a while and it took me time to get caught up.) Although in my defense, although you mentioned the lies of Gish, you didn't mention the term "Gish Gallop". Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 I already told her there's been nearly 3000 recorded deities in history. Those are only avatars. They are intended to represent different facets of a mythological idea. Even Hindus admit this. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 - An illogical dismissal of those same issues, where she doesn't actually address the issues, but ignores them or claims that they "aren't important" Put me down for $100 on this one. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) Those are only avatars. They are intended to represent different facets of a mythological idea. Even Hindus admit this. So there's really only 1 God and the rest are avatars? That's a new one. I say that one God is just an avatar to represent all mythological ideas. Edited June 7, 2011 by cybercoma Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 So there's really only 1 God and the rest are avatars? That's a new one. It's not a "new one". Hinduism is thousands of years old. See? You're learning things now. I say that one God is just an avatar to represent all mythological ideas. That is entirely possible. Now, instead of focusing on the immediacy of such things as "God's not real, HE'S just a myth" etc. it would be helpful to study and try to understand what it really means. You might start with asking "Why do people want to believe in something greater than ourselves", and what does that do for us, what actions can that result in. The ideas translate into actions. Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) That is entirely possible. Now, instead of focusing on the immediacy of such things as "God's not real, HE'S just a myth" etc. it would be helpful to study and try to understand what it really means. You might start with asking "Why do people want to believe in something greater than ourselves", and what does that do for us, what actions can that result in. The ideas translate into actions. There are likely biological reasons that the concept of "religion" and "god" gained a foothold. Its likely due to a combination of several factors: - We are pattern seekers... its a survival thing. If we saw a pattern that "lightning is accompanied by rain", our ancestors would figure out "Hey, when lightning comes, rain comes... don't drown in the river". However, such a system is imperfect, and its possible that we'll make "false positives". (So, we might think "I did X and something happened", even though the 2 events were coincidental and had no relationship.) Thus, we think "I prayed and something good happened" is basically just a false positive giving reinforcement Edited to add: We also have a trait where we tend to remember the "hits" and forget the "misses". So if someone makes 100 "predictions", 99 of them fail and 1 is successful, we will remember the 1 success and forget the 99 failures. Betsy is a perfect example of that... she becomes fixated on the 1 or 2 coincidences in the bible that happen to be true, and totally ignores everything about the bible that was utterly wrong. - We are inquisitive creatures. We like to know the answers to things. Sometimes though, in our attempt to know the answer, we might stumble on a false answer (i.e. god) and stick with it - "Religion" does have a communal function. Humans require a certain amount of social contact and structure, and religion has acted in that capacity in the past. I also remember reading about how humans can, on average "remember" around 100 people. (i.e. form friendships with, or other type of relationship). This tends to be about the size of the "average" church. Edited June 7, 2011 by segnosaur Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 I already told her there's been nearly 3000 recorded deities in history. Those are only avatars. Great, now you owe James Cameron royalties. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Great, now you owe James Cameron royalties. I know what you are referring to, but I never saw the movie. I am one of those people who does not like to watch movies, or TV shows. I do not read fiction either. I like real stuff though, news and sports, and science and technology. The effect that entertainment has on our brains, especially modern forms of entertainment is another thing that I believe people do not fully understand. For some reason I believe it is detrimental to the development of a complete person to their utmost abilities. In a previous post the comment was made that religion fills the gaps in our understanding of nature, or reality. That is not all it does. Religion, or rather spiritual belief is a powerful tool and a weapon in our minds. There are things people are willing to do when they believe in something, that otherwise would be virtually impossible. Virtually, I say. I know there are people who call themselves atheist who also have great courage, but for the average person, simple people, religion gives them the hope to continue when all else in life seems worthless. In other words, when you've hit the bottom, it is a vehicle to help you out of the hole. In other cases when there is a tremendous challenge put before you, and to succeed requires much pain and suffering, ind fortitude religion is the bridge. For more information refer to "Muhammad Ali". Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) Oh, and something else I had forgotten about... Betsy likes to claim that the bible has "proof" of mountains and trenches under the sea. But do do that, she typically quotes the book of Jonah. Well, guess what? The book of Jonah was written in the fifths/fourth century B.C.E. On the other hand, Plato described Atlantis around 350 B.C.E. (which, guess what... features an island with mountains sinking below the sea), but that story was possibly inspired by the Minoan eruption in the 2nd Millennium B.C.E., an event that occurred hundreds of years before the book of Jonah was written (heck, it was even hundreds of years before the book of Jonah was actually SET.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thera_eruption So, there were precedents for ancient cultures knowing about "sunken islands" long before those references were added to the bible. Not that her claims needed any more debunking. Edited June 7, 2011 by segnosaur Quote
segnosaur Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 In a previous post the comment was made that religion fills the gaps in our understanding of nature, or reality. That is not all it does. Actually religion doesn't even do that. Filling in "gaps in our understanding" with something that's false is not "filling them in at all". Its like putting a screen door on a submarine. Religion, or rather spiritual belief is a powerful tool and a weapon in our minds. There are things people are willing to do when they believe in something, that otherwise would be virtually impossible. Virtually, I say. I know there are people who call themselves atheist who also have great courage, but for the average person, simple people, religion gives them the hope to continue when all else in life seems worthless. First of all, that's not necessarily a "good thing". After all, while you may think that belief is something that "helps people go on", having such belief can also lead people to believe in "72 virgins for suicide bombing". Secondly, there's no reason to believe that religion or "spiritual belief" is the only way that those people can go on. Such people could gain such inspiration through other means. (i.e. its not necessarily spiritual belief giving people confidence; they already have the ability to go on, they are just miss-attributing it to religion.) Quote
scouterjim Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Actually religion doesn't even do that. Filling in "gaps in our understanding" with something that's false is not "filling them in at all". Its like putting a screen door on a submarine. First of all, that's not necessarily a "good thing". After all, while you may think that belief is something that "helps people go on", having such belief can also lead people to believe in "72 virgins for suicide bombing". Secondly, there's no reason to believe that religion or "spiritual belief" is the only way that those people can go on. Such people could gain such inspiration through other means. (i.e. its not necessarily spiritual belief giving people confidence; they already have the ability to go on, they are just miss-attributing it to religion.) Religions have been the cause of more wars than anything else. Quote I have captured the rare duct taped platypus.
Oleg Bach Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Golly! Of all the scientific facts I've given so far, you can only come up with this one? Circle/sphere. I remember drawing a circle representing the earth! Anyway, that's just one guy's personal comment on it....one of the many personal comments thrown around everywhere. I have a personal comment also. The old testiment is a glorified template and history for horrific behaviour. The new testiment is hopeful ----well most of it that is NOT Paulist is very good for humanity. To believe that every last word in every book of the Bible is devine is quite insane. You have to filter it through logic and a keen eye for the truth for this compulational manuscript to be usefull -- If not much like the Koran - it causes problems for the world. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Religions have been the cause of more wars than anything else. Yes, but religion also elevated civilization. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 Yes, but religion also elevated civilization. As it says in the pre-amble of our Bill Of Rights....to para phrase..."the supremacy of God and the rule of law there under" ----a wise old lawyer once said to me that the concept of God - forces the participants to enter into a state of higher mindedness....in other words it keeps people from abusing others by playing god.. Those that play god cause war - not God. Quote
Saipan Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 There are likely biological reasons that the concept of "religion" and "god" gained a foothold. Its likely due to a combination of several factors: - We are pattern seekers... its a survival thing. That's why we invented Mother Nature. We also have a trait where we tend to remember the "hits" and forget the "misses". So if someone makes 100 "predictions", 99 of them fail and 1 is successful, we will remember the 1 success and forget the 99 failures. It's why some people see green sky and feel global warm up while they are freezing. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 7, 2011 Report Posted June 7, 2011 As it says in the pre-amble of our Bill Of Rights....to para phrase..."the supremacy of God and the rule of law there under" ----a wise old lawyer once said to me that the concept of God - forces the participants to enter into a state of higher mindedness....in other words it keeps people from abusing others by playing god.. Those that play god cause war - not God. You're missing the point. Once the temple was built, it became a fixture of an ancient community...its focal point. Add a marketplace and you're well on your way to building a new city. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 You're missing the point. Once the temple was built, it became a fixture of an ancient community...its focal point. Add a marketplace and you're well on your way to building a new city. Not real big on cities these days. In the long run they are a miserable mistake. They remove man from nature and thus from the spirit of God. You mention the market place...in or around the temple - makes one consider the fashioning of a whip and giving the bankers and money lenders a good thrashing - the mixing of church and state is a bad idea - so is the mixing of church and commerce. One can not serve two masters as they say - You can not be the slave of money and the servant of God at the same time - money is material - God is not - one can not be in two worlds at the same time. Not that this rant has anything to do with this topic. Quote
betsy Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I know what you are referring to, but I never saw the movie. I just happened to watch the movie Avatar last night. It's just like some of the Playstation Adventure games - same old concept and ideas taken out from different religion (like the "Tree of Life," worship of nature, native Aboriginal ways, etc.,) and rehashed into mish-mash with the same old story of greed (land claiming for valuable resources) and faith. It has the same feel as Jurassic Park for thrills of being chased by monsters - inlcuding a pack of relentless beasts which seemed to have been inspired by those prehistoric beasts (forgot the name) that ate the little girl in the openning scene of Jurassic Park 2. The movie's real showcase is all about the graphics/visual effects, imv (it's like a playground for graphic artists)....which I found boring after a while. Nothing really there. Kids probably enjoyed it though. Edited June 8, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) Scoffers ask a lot of whys which I dismiss as being so petty! And irrelevant! Like one poster ask about why God does not know the mustard seed is not the smallest, or rabbits' eating ways. These examples he gave were all obvious and observable to all people during those days! Didn't they see rabbits aren't like cows? The premise - or would you say "pattern" - of the topic is completely lost to some posters! The facts listed are Biblical declarations that were proven true by science thousands of years after they were declared in the Bible! Edited June 8, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I noticed Cybercoma tried to resurrect the rebutt about the hundreds other deities recorded in history! Like as if that has any bearing on the premise of this topic! Even if there were thousands of deities recorded in history it wouldn't be worth squat unless you give me the proof that I asked for: Give me one other religious faith that has an ancient book much similar to the Bible that has science-proven facts pertaining to origin! As far as I know, only the Bible has these facts dead on! Edited June 8, 2011 by betsy Quote
Oleg Bach Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 I noticed Cybercoma tried to resurrect the rebutt about the hundreds other deities recorded in history! Like as if that has any bearing on the premise of this topic! Even if there were thousands of deities recorded in history it wouldn't be worth squat unless you give me the proof that I asked for: Give me one other religious faith that has an ancient book much similar to the Bible that has science-proven facts pertaining to origin! As far as I know, only the Bible has these facts dead on! Multiple gods are a human invention. People put everything in a pigeon hole in an attempt to understand things. The bible is a pretty clever and wise bit of work...BUT it has to be used sparingly and with a keen eye for bullshit. I gave it a three year study a long while back - I used older reference books and a Harpers Biblical dictionary to understand the common terms...finally I discovered that the truth (reality) is found naturally within the person...I rarely open the good book these days....it was useful in understanding how Judiac Christain culture evolved. Those that take any religious manuscript literally and in an overly trusting manner are fools - Liars and manipulators of man kind have existed for eons. THUS it is a mistake to believe that the bible has not been tampered with - If something in scripture smells foul and defys logic it is a lie...to be tossed aside. Quote
g_bambino Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 I noticed Cybercoma tried to resurrect the rebutt about the hundreds other deities recorded in history! Like as if that has any bearing on the premise of this topic! You're the one who said God (note: singular) has always existed. Quote
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